Date: Tue, 16 Oct 1984 00:54 EDT Message-ID: From: SAZ%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Meta-X Correct Spelling should probably know about apostrophe - s's at the end of a word, shouldn't it? saz  Date: 11 Oct 84 22:42:20 EDT From: Charles Hedrick Subject: Trademarking EMACS To: tops-20@SU-SCORE.ARPA, bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA, info-emacs@CMU-CS-C.ARPA There was recently some discussion on the Tops-20 mailing list (and I think maybe some others as well) about ads from Unipress that have shown EMACS as a trademark. Since I had more confidence than some of you in the sanity of the folks at Unipress, I decided to check with them to find out what is going on. The following response is from Mike Gallaher, one of the EMACS technical support staff. It was written in consultation with the president of Unipress. ------------------ Unipress is NOT trying to claim the name "EMACS" as a trademark. We do claim the names "Unipress Emacs" and "Gosling Emacs" as trademarks, which we have done for three or four months now. For a period of about two months, between April and June, we did ill-advisedly place the TM device on the name Emacs. Because of the lead time for magazine ads, the ads with Emacs(tm) just appeared in the last two or three issues of BYTE. Originally, our ads simply used the word EMACS, with no TM. We received many threatening letters and phone calls from several LARGE computer companies who claimed that they owned the name EMACS and that we could not use it. The use of TM on the name EMACS was a hasty action to defend ourselves from such threats. After realizing that it is absurd to trademark the name EMACS, because it has really become a name for a generic class of editors (as Mark Crispin noted), and to avoid conflicts with trademarks like "CCA EMACS", we decided to claim the phrases "Unipress Emacs" and "Gosling Emacs" instead. Our reason for claiming a trademark in the first place was in self-defense. We certainly have no intention of keeping anyone from using the name Emacs for any program, public-domain or otherwise. -------  Date: 11 October 1984 18:56-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: EMACS trademarked?!? To: MRC @ SU-SCORE cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, TOPS-20 @ SU-SCORE, WANCHO @ SIMTEL20 In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 10 Oct 84 19:52:44-PDT from Mark Crispin I have word that the Unipress people had already backed down on the matter, and that their ads will reflect the change after a short delay.  Date: Thu 11 Oct 84 16:50:58-EDT From: Richard M. Stallman Subject: EMACS(tm) To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC, tops-20@SU-SCORE.ARPA I got the MIT patent office to send Unipress a letter. I also heard that CCA sent them a letter and that Unipress agreed to stop claiming rights to the term "EMACS". -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 11 Oct 84 00:53-EDT Date: Thursday, 11 October 1984, 00:53-EDT From: Subject: suggestion To: BUG-EMACS at MIT-OZ, BUG-ZMACS at MIT-OZ Forgive me if this already exists, but how about new commands: DASHIFY-WORD UNDASHIFY-WORD probably mounted on one of the bucky-hyphens. When-placed-on-a-word-the-command-DASHIFY-WORD-would-put-a- dash-between-it-and-the-next-word. Undashify would be the obvious inverse operation.  Date: Wed 10 Oct 84 19:52:44-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: EMACS trademarked?!? To: KLOTZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: WANCHO@SIMTEL20.ARPA, BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA, TOPS-20@SU-SCORE.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Leigh L. Klotz " of Wed 10 Oct 84 13:33:00-PDT Postal-Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041 Phone: (415) 497-1407 (Stanford); (415) 968-1052 (residence) I think it is quite unlikely that that trademark would stand up in court. The original meaning of "EMACS" became lost once the EMACS interface was implemented in other than TECO on a PDP-10, and has since come to mean a generic class of display editors with certain characteristics. This is precisely the sort of thing which keeps a name from being a trademark -- in the USA "Asprin" lost its trademark status and great lengths are gone to protect "Kleenex" and "Xerox" from becoming generic names for tissues and copying machines respectively. Because of this, even RMS couldn't trademark the name EMACS (assuming he wanted to) any more. The question is, who is going to sue Unipress? I suspect it'll be one of the other companies which have proprietary versions of EMACS. A pity, because Unipress ought to be hit for a nice amount in $$ for damages (restraint in trade, etc.) and it'd be nice if the people who worked on PDP-10 EMACS got it... -------  Date: 10 October 1984 16:33-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: EMACS trademarked?!? To: WANCHO @ SIMTEL20 cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, TOPS-20 @ SU-SCORE In-reply-to: Msg of 10 Oct 1984 12:56 MDT (Wed) from Frank J. Wancho We're looking into this...  Date: 10 October 1984 16:27-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: Dired E command To: AGRE @ MIT-OZ cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 9 Oct 1984 20:12 EDT from AGRE at MIT-OZ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 1984 20:12 EDT From: AGRE at MIT-OZ To: bug-dired at MIT-OZ Re: Dired E command ReSent-Date: Wed 10 Oct 84 06:12:41-EDT ReSent-From: Gail Zacharias ReSent-To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC I dearly wish that some public-spirited person would give Dired a version of the E command with the LispM's Dired E semantics. Such a command would edit the current file not in a recursive ^R but rather in another full-fledged buffer, as if you had called up the file with ^X^F yourself. /phil CCA EMACS does this by having a Dired Mode (a Major Mode) for buffers. With ITS EMACS it's hard because Dired is a Subsystem, which takes over completely, and runs inside a recursive ^R loop. It would take just a little bit of hacking to make this happen. I'm not sure about the overhead for all the local variables, though. I don't know if that was the reason it was done as by hand instead of as a major mode. What about Info and Babyl and so on?  Date: 10 Oct 1984 12:56 MDT (Wed) Message-ID: From: "Frank J. Wancho" To: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC Cc: TOPS-20@SCORE Subject: EMACS trademarked?!? I don't know how I missed this, but since the August issue of BYTE, UNIPRESS is claiming a trademark on EMACS in their ads. I say "claiming" because the first requirement to be able to register a trademark is to have claimed the trademark associated with a product or service for at least a year. If such a claimed trademark goes unchallenged, I suspect we may be forced to give up using the name EMACS, as absurd as it sounds... --Frank  Mail-From: AGRE created at 9-Oct-84 20:12:44 Date: Tue, 9 Oct 1984 20:12 EDT Message-ID: From: AGRE@MIT-OZ To: bug-dired@MIT-OZ Subject: Dired E command ReSent-Date: Wed 10 Oct 84 06:12:41-EDT ReSent-From: Gail Zacharias ReSent-To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC I dearly wish that some public-spirited person would give Dired a version of the E command with the LispM's Dired E semantics. Such a command would edit the current file not in a recursive ^R but rather in another full-fledged buffer, as if you had called up the file with ^X^F yourself. /phil  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 5 Oct 84 00:56:53-EDT Date: Thu 4 Oct 84 18:31:18-PDT From: David Purves Subject: Ambassador terminals To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA I use an ambassador terminal, and among other things, I run a status line on the 60th line. To do this, I define the bottom line as a Lower Host Area, using the escape sequence ESC[60;;1p When I start up emacs, it automagically sends the sequence ESC[x;;;xp , where 'x' is the line length (apparently as obtained from the exec). This unfortunately, wipes out my status line. It also seems that it sends this sequence twice, for no apparent reason. I have written an Ambassador library myself, which among other things sets up the function keys, and places default defnintions on them. I could just add a line which output the screen size I wanted, but that would be less than optimal. --Dave -------  Date: 4 October 1984 17:31-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: WBA @ MIT-MC, JGA @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC It's true. It should use its own ..D or not use fw-style commands to do the word stuff. Oh well.  Date: Thu 4 Oct 84 17:02:13-EDT From: William B. Ackerman Subject: [John G. Aspinall : ^R Correct Word Spelling] To: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA, JGA@MIT-MC.ARPA This seems to be because, when & Spell Replace Word looks through the file returned by the spell checker, it uses the word commands like "fwl" to pick out the suggested spellings. The ..D delimiter table seems to indicate single quote as a delimiter, so it just picks out "simplicity" from the word "simplicity's" that is actually in the file. It seems that & Spell Replace Word should set up a temporary ..D that has single quote as a letter. Is someone able to fix this? I haven't munged EMACS for so long I would not feel qualified to do this reliably. --------------- Return-Path: Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Thu 4 Oct 84 11:05:40-EDT Date: 4 October 1984 11:06-EDT From: John G. Aspinall Subject: ^R Correct Word Spelling To: BUG-SPELL @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC cc: JGA @ MIT-MC In an emacs buffer: type "simplicitys" put the cursor somewhere on the word, and type M-$ the choices offered will be: 0 - simplicity 1 - simplicity's whichever number you type, you will get the 0th choice - "simplicity" - as the replacement. John. -------  Date: 4 October 1984 11:06-EDT From: John G. Aspinall Subject: ^R Correct Word Spelling To: BUG-SPELL @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC cc: JGA @ MIT-MC In an emacs buffer: type "simplicitys" put the cursor somewhere on the word, and type M-$ the choices offered will be: 0 - simplicity 1 - simplicity's whichever number you type, you will get the 0th choice - "simplicity" - as the replacement. John.  Date: Sat 29 Sep 84 13:00:12-PDT From: Kirk Lougheed Subject: Re: ETEACH ON A HAZELINE 1500 To: DLIU@SU-SIERRA.ARPA cc: BUG-EMACS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "David D. Liu " of Fri 28 Sep 84 15:59:07-PDT There are two types of H1500 terminals: ones that use ESC as a leadin character for cursor commands, and ones that use a tilde as a leadin character. The H1500 that is supported by the -20 uses tilde. You should be able to set switches, jumpers, whatever, on your terminal to make it use tilde instead of ESC. Another thing you might try is the ESPRIT terminal type -- I am not sure if that works correctly with the H1500 but it is worth a try. Kirk -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 28 Sep 84 22:09-EDT Date: 28 September 1984 22:09-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: end of line To: MONTALVO @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 26 Sep 84 19:15:33-EDT from MONTALVO%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Date: Wed 26 Sep 84 19:15:33-EDT From: MONTALVO%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA cc: MONTALVO%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Re: end of line I seem to remember that "end of line" command worked differently just recently. I think I remember that when a line was longer than my screen and followed on the next line, if I did an "end of line" the cursor would go all the way to the end of the line. Now it just goes to the rightmost position on the screen. If I then do another "end of line" it now goes all the way to the end. Did this command change? Is there a way to set it backt to the previous behavior. I like the old behavior better. Fanya Sounds like some kind of terminal lossage. Are you using an ambassador? If so, check the wrap-forward bit (second bit in the d selection, I think.) It should be 0.  Date: Fri 28 Sep 84 15:59:06-PDT From: David D. Liu Subject: ETEACH ON A HAZELINE 1500 To: BUG-EMACS@SU-SIERRA.ARPA I WAS ON ETEACH USING A HAZELTINE 1500 AND FOUND THAT THE -V, -F, AND -B DID NOT WORK AS THEY WERE EXPECTED TO. IF MY UNDERSTAND IT RIGHT,THEREIS EITHER A BUG IN THE SYSTEM OR IN MY TERMINAL. -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Thu 27 Sep 84 00:51:49-EDT Date: Wed 26 Sep 84 21:50:12-PDT From: Shawn Amirsardary Subject: Emacs problem solved! To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA In reference to a BBoard posted that complained about SCORE-Emacs being too slow even when the load was very low: I just found out what the problem was. What happened to me was than whenever I typed a command that would reposition the page (^O, or ^K for example) the terminal would freeze for about 10-15 seconds. Of course I blamed this on the system being slow. But what really happened was that Score either sent a whole series of null characters, or a string of control characters that effectively froze up the terminal. I made this discovery by observing the CHAR-RECEIVE LED on my MODEM. After much searching I isolated the following line in my Emacs.INIT file: !* If the System doen't know what Baud Rate the terminal is using, ! !* set it to 1200 baud to avoid excessive padding. ! @:I*| 2 FS Echo Lines FS OSpeed"E 1200 FS OSpeed' | FS TTY Macro FS TTY Init I really don't have the foggiest idea what TECO is all about. I got this line straight from the LEDIT init file at CMU! But just in case some other poor slob is complaining, you will know what to tell them. --Shawn -------  Date: Wed 26 Sep 84 19:15:33-EDT From: MONTALVO%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: end of line To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: MONTALVO%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I seem to remember that "end of line" command worked differently just recently. I think I remember that when a line was longer than my screen and followed on the next line, if I did an "end of line" the cursor would go all the way to the end of the line. Now it just goes to the rightmost position on the screen. If I then do another "end of line" it now goes all the way to the end. Did this command change? Is there a way to set it backt to the previous behavior. I like the old behavior better. Fanya -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Wed 26 Sep 84 16:26:02-EDT Date: Wed 26 Sep 84 13:24:26-PDT From: Paul Wickstrom Subject: Use of EMACS with INFORMER-100 terminal To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA I have an INFORMER-100 portable terminal with an internal 1200 baud modem which is supposed to emulate a VT100 or a VT52. I am using it to access SCORE. It seems to work fine except for EMACS. I have tried both "@terminal VT100" and "@terminal VT52" with no success. The symptoms are: - no clear screen - overtyped characters - generally impossible to use Can you suggest a remedy or point me to someone who can? Thanks. Paul Wickstrom WICKSTROM@SCORE -------  Received: from MIT-EECS by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Sep 84 13:17-EDT Date: Wed 26 Sep 84 07:13:26-EDT From: Randy Haskins Subject: Re: how do you swap key definitions? To: KLOTZ@MIT-MC cc: STRAZ@MIT-OZ, BUG-OZ@MIT-MC, bug-emacs@MIT-OZ In-Reply-To: Message from "Leigh L. Klotz " of Wed 26 Sep 84 02:43:00-EDT Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Sep 84 02:42-EDT Date: 26 September 1984 02:43-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: how do you swap key definitions? To: STRAZ @ MIT-OZ cc: BUG-OZ @ MIT-MC, bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 21:08:30-EDT From: Steve Strassmann To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Re: how do you swap key definitions? I and several others are now using a DEC pro 350 (blechhh) running as a vt100 to connect to OZ, but the keyboard has a particularly brain-damaged layout. How can I set up in an LOGIN.CMD (well, EMACS.VARS, I bet) the magic which swaps back-quote and ESC. It would be nice to only do this conditionally (as we DO use normal terminals occasionally), and even better if this swapping could be done at exec for all of tops20, instead of just babyl/emacs. Thanks, -steve This sounds like a marginal idea, but as long as you have experienced users only it sounds ok. Just try explaining to a new user that you type backquote which is like escape which is the command prefix for meta keys which this keyboard doesn't have... ... I'd think it would be easier to get the source for the terminal emulator for the 350 (or write a new one) which swaps the key definitions at the machine. Then maybe you can swap keycaps, too. This is probably the thing to do, because: Unless someone wants to hack this into the exec like they did ter reverse (delete and underscore characters). There's more to doing this than hacking the Exec. The Monitor also has to be hacked (as it is in TERM REVERSE (DELETE AND UNDERSCORE)). It's not that much code, but it's not very pretty either. Also, if we started doing this for lots of pairs of keys, the nomenclature would kill us. Would you like to see this? @TERM REV ? one of the following: COLON-DQUOTE CONTROL-C-CONTROL-Z DELETE-UNDERSCORE ESCAPE-BACKQUOTE No, neither would I. Random -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Sep 84 02:42-EDT Date: 26 September 1984 02:43-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: how do you swap key definitions? To: STRAZ @ MIT-OZ cc: BUG-OZ @ MIT-MC, bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 25 Sep 84 21:08:30-EDT from Steve Strassmann Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 21:08:30-EDT From: Steve Strassmann To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Re: how do you swap key definitions? I and several others are now using a DEC pro 350 (blechhh) running as a vt100 to connect to OZ, but the keyboard has a particularly brain-damaged layout. How can I set up in an LOGIN.CMD (well, EMACS.VARS, I bet) the magic which swaps back-quote and ESC. It would be nice to only do this conditionally (as we DO use normal terminals occasionally), and even better if this swapping could be done at exec for all of tops20, instead of just babyl/emacs. Thanks, -steve This sounds like a marginal idea, but as long as you have experienced users only it sounds ok. Just try explaining to a new user that you type backquote which is like escape which is the command prefix for meta keys which this keyboard doesn't have... Unfortunately, however, it's not easy to do. You could change the definition of escape to insert a backquote and change backquote to be the ^R Prefix Meta. You could also change Search Exit Char to backquote, but it wouldn't do any good since I-Search seems to think it has to be a control key instead of looking at the definition of the key. Also, anywhere else that wants an escape (like babyl, teco minibuffers for M-%, etc) won't work. It's just hardwired in in too many places. I'd think it would be easier to get the source for the terminal emulator for the 350 (or write a new one) which swaps the key definitions at the machine. Then maybe you can swap keycaps, too. Unless someone wants to hack this into the exec like they did ter reverse (delete and underscore characters).  Date: Tue, 25 Sep 1984 22:45 EDT Message-ID: From: ZVONA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: m-X Rename Buffer in two-window mode Suppose I have a buffer FOO. I use c-X 4 to put the buffer in both windows. Now do m-X Rename Buffer$BAR in one of the windows and do c-X o. You get a newly-consed empty buffer called FOO in the other window.  Date: Tue 25 Sep 84 21:08:30-EDT From: Steve Strassmann Subject: how do you swap key definitions? To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I and several others are now using a DEC pro 350 (blechhh) running as a vt100 to connect to OZ, but the keyboard has a particularly brain-damaged layout. How can I set up in an LOGIN.CMD (well, EMACS.VARS, I bet) the magic which swaps back-quote and ESC. It would be nice to only do this conditionally (as we DO use normal terminals occasionally), and even better if this swapping could be done at exec for all of tops20, instead of just babyl/emacs. Thanks, -steve -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Mon 24 Sep 84 15:01:05-EDT Date: Mon 24 Sep 84 11:58:59-PDT From: SHAWN@SU-SCORE.ARPA Subject: Correct Spelling does not work To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA The M-X coect spelling command that is supposed to dump your buffer to ISPELL does not work. It sends the buffer to some non-existant entity, and returns an empty buffer after you ^C out of the said non-existant entity. --Shawn -------  Date: Fri, 21 Sep 1984 07:55 PDT Message-ID: From: ATTY@SU-SIERRA.ARPA To: bug-emacs@SU-SIERRA.ARPA The babyl program throws you into EMACS rather than babyl. I built a babyl program that throws you directly into BABYL upon start-up. It's in BABYL.EXE if you want to use it. Atty  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Thu 20 Sep 84 22:29:33-EDT Date: 20 September 1984 22:29-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: keyboard macros To: SHERMA @ MIT-XX cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-XX In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 19 Sep 84 16:31:29-EDT from Alan T. Sherman Try using the new keyboard macro library on XX. Define a keyboard macro and do m-x describe$write kbd macro.  Date: Thu 20 Sep 84 18:44-EDT From: klotz Sender: Laurel A. Simmons Subject: emacs keyboard macros To: bard@MIT-XX CC: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Try it now. I installed the new keyboard macro library. XX's emacs isn't up to date.  Date: Thu 20 Sep 84 16:26:30-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: saving and recalling emacs keyboard macros To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA I have had trouble recalling EMACS keyboard macros. I have bee following the directions in the manual (I think), nameing the macro with Name Kbd Macro, writing it with Write Kbd Macro; and then trying to reload it in another incarnation of EMACS with Load Library. As far as I can tell, the macro does get into the library (it's there when I list it), but I can't invoke it either as a M-X function or bound to a key. I have seen other people do it, with (apparently) the same set of commands, on their own EMACSs. Thanks. -- Bard (BARD@XX) -------  Date: Thu 20 Sep 84 16:22:37-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject:  To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Wed 19 Sep 84 19:25:45-EDT Date: Wed 19 Sep 84 16:23:40-PDT From: David P. Helmbold Subject: spurious 'x' and 'r' To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA When I use the heath library I occasionally get "x"s or "r"s when I move through the file using the or on the numeric keypad. It seems to happen whenever I do about 4 or 5 in rapid succession. The extra characters are usually accompanied by a beep. I have not noticed the problem when I use the ctrl-p or ctrl-n keys directly. Is there a way to fix the problem? Is the problem in the tips? In the Heath library? THanks, Dave Helmbold -------  Date: Wed 19 Sep 84 16:31:29-EDT From: Alan T. Sherman Subject: keyboard macros To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA cc: sherma@MIT-XX.ARPA I would like to be able to do the following task in emacs. Please tell me if there is an easy way to do this. If there is not an enasy way to do this, it would be nice if someone would fix emacs to give it this capability. desired task: I would like to be able 1) to assign names to sequennces of emacs commands (OK) 2) to execute such keyboard macros (OK) 3) to save such keyboard macros 4) to have my emacs init file read in my keyboard macros Furthermore, I DO NOT want to have to use teco or have to know anything about teco. It would be nice if emacs provided keyboard macros facilities with the same high level interface that is provided for word abbreviations. Also, it would be nice if emacs had better programming primitives (conditionals, numeric operators, variables) for use in keyboard macros. Any decent text editor should provide these fundamental building blocks for creating new editing commands. Thanks--Alan Sherman -------  Received: by sri-prism.ARPA (4.12/4.16) id AA02378; Mon, 17 Sep 84 02:33:15 pdt Message-Id: <8409170933.AA02378@sri-prism.ARPA> Date: Mon Sep 17 02:31:43 1984 From: mclure@sri-prism To: bug-emacs@mit-mc Subject: EMACS question I am attempting to ascertain what exactly EMACS does with a vt100 (or vt100 simulator such as the Macintosh which is what I am on) in order to implement line insert/delete with the vt100 "mung window" features. Is there someone out there who can tell me what exactly EMACS (or TECO) does in order to implement this line insert/delete feature. Thank-you. Stuart  Date: Mon, 17 Sep 1984 00:26 EDT Message-ID: From: "Leigh L. Klotz" To: agre%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I put an f[window in oz:dired in the same place there was one in the its dired. The two direds should be compared again for feature differences.  Received: from SCRC-EUPHRATES by SCRC-YUKON via CHAOS with CHAOS-MAIL id 61135; Sun 16-Sep-84 17:46:52-EDT Date: Sun, 16 Sep 84 17:44 EDT From: "David A. Moon" To: "Donald E. Hopkins" cc: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA, BUG-TCTYP@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: The message of 11 Sep 84 00:58-EDT from Donald E. Hopkins Message-ID: <840916174424.9.MOON@EUPHRATES.SCRC.Symbolics> Date: 11 September 1984 00:58-EDT From: Donald E. Hopkins I'm running a terminal program on my Apple that emulated a VT52 with line/character insert/delete, using $L, $M, $P, $Q, and $R for insert line, delete line, delete character, enter insert mode, and exit insert mode, respectivly. I use :tctyp vt52 +%tolid +%tocid ..... :tctyp gets: VT52, Padtab=1, +%tocid, +%tolid, Query I did not specify the padtab. I tried :tctyp padtab 0, and restarting emacs, and now it uses a series of $C's instead of spaces. When I type a tab, it then goes to the right with $C's, too. On display terminals the PADTAB field is recycled to control cursor positioning options rather than padding for tabs (only printing terminals need padding for tabulation.) Unfortunately TCTYP doesn't know to print the field with a type-dependent name. Part of what's happening to you is that ITS is smart and compensates for the numerous bugs in (some) VT52s having to do with cursor positioning. The value of PADTAB you want might be 3, I don't remember for sure.  Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 14 Sep 84 11:43:01-EDT Mail-From: BRUTLAG created at 12-Sep-84 06:01:01 Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 06:01:01-PDT From: Doug Brutlag Subject: ERROR IN FILEWRITING WHEN EDITING A NARROWED REGION OR PAGE To: bug-emacs@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Fri 14 Sep 84 08:44:04-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA You might pass this on to MIT, but I have found that when one is editing a narrowed region of a file, such as narrowing the region to a single page and that region has no CRLF at its end, that EMACS prompts you: The file does not end with CRLF should I add one when you write the file out. It does this even if the FILE itself does end with a carriage return line feed. Apparently EMACS is just looking at the narrowed region for the terminal CRLF and it should look at the file as a whole. Indeed, if you respond Yes, to add a CRLF, EMACS adds one at the end of the region rather than at the end of the file. I think this is a BUG because most people editing narrow regions are usuallyediting PAGES of a manuscript (at least I am) and these regions are almost always followed immediately by CRLF-FORMFEED, hence there is no reason to add a CRLF to the end of the narrowed region. I think that the check for a terminal CRLF should look at the file as a whole, even if the user is only editing a narrowed region. Doug Brutlag -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 12 Sep 84 20:40-EDT Date: 12 September 1984 20:37-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: exiting from dired To: AGRE @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 12 Sep 1984 18:34 EDT from AGRE%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA dired should probably be doing f[window or something.  Date: Wed, 12 Sep 1984 18:34 EDT Message-ID: From: AGRE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: exiting from dired Get a multi-screenful file into a buffer, go to the end, do C-5 C-L then use C-X D to get into Dired, then use Q to exit it. The screen, under all conditions I've tested anyway, will be as if C-L'ed, with the point in the middle rather than on the 5th line like it was before entering Dired. This is probably wrong and presumably Dired's fault. /phil  Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 12:15-EDT From: David M. J. Saslav Subject: And finally, an apology To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Sorry to have wasted your time -- KMP just explained to me about why certain very few control chars work on ann arbors and vt52 and why others don't. Still, the documentation IS misleading... Anyway, no more. saz  Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 11:54-EDT From: David M. J. Saslav Subject: Another clarification To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ When I stated that Replace String hasn't been working, what I meant was that the control character which is advertised to do a Replace String (ctrl-%) hasn't been living up to this promise. It is currently a no-op [as of the last five or six times I've tried it.] sorry to have misled, if I did. saz  Date: Wed 12 Sep 84 11:34-EDT From: David M. J. Saslav Subject: Clarification To: BUG-emacs@MIT-OZ After resetting my Emacs fork, the Query Replace String problem magically went away. Still, to have been able to damage it that way seems wrong. And I'm still interested in obtaining more access [beyond manually replacing each one] to blank lines/ CR's... saz  Date: Wed, 12 Sep 1984 11:27 EDT Message-ID: From: SAZ%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Blank lines I've just been screwed by Query Replace String;s inablity to recognize a blank line [ie, ---------------------------------------- Query Replace String$ $ stuff-this-into-some-of-the-blank-lines $$ ----------------------------------------- doesn't do anything to the buffer] What I find even more puzzling is that there is NO OTHER access [at least none that allows me to do actually *modify*] blank lines [or CR tokens, if you will] in the implementation of Emacs [at least none that are documented using key- words such as "Find", "Blank" or "Line"] in the case of Query REplace and REplace String [which has never known about CR tokens, interestingly enough] breaking down, as has happened here. Why is there such limited access to blanklines? frustrated, dave m j saslav  Date: 11 September 1984 00:58-EDT From: Donald E. Hopkins To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-TCTYP @ MIT-MC I'm running a terminal program on my Apple that emulated a VT52 with line/character insert/delete, using $L, $M, $P, $Q, and $R for insert line, delete line, delete character, enter insert mode, and exit insert mode, respectivly. I use :tctyp vt52 +%tolid +%tocid ...It's got 80 columns by 24 lines... Now, the problem: it seems to like to use relative cursor motion instead of absolute, and in Emacs, when I do something that moves the cursor forward several columns, it moves it by printing spaces, which wipes out what is on the screen between where the cursor starts and ends up. I am typing to MAIL right now, and when a line exceeds the screen width, and wraps around with a ! in the right column, and I ^W the word that made it wrap, the cursor first erases the end of the word on the line it's on with a series of 's, then spaces out to the right side of the screen on that same line, moves up, and erases the rest of the word with 's. This is quite annoying at 300 baud... I have never had this problem until recently. It seems to have started within the last several days, although I have not used this terminal program for a month or two. I have always had the same problem when I specify :tctyp hp , which gets the line/char ins/del codes right, but uses relative cursor motion all the time. (could have something to do with the god awful absolute cursor motion sequences of the hp.) In Emacs, after, say, refreshing the screen, the cursor is moved to where the point is in the file with an $H for home, a series of spaces, and a series of ^J's. I have yet to see an $Y for absolute cursor motion. :tctyp gets: VT52, Padtab=1, +%tocid, +%tolid, Query I did not specify the padtab. I tried :tctyp padtab 0, and restarting emacs, and now it uses a series of $C's instead of spaces. When I type a tab, it then goes to the right with $C's, too. Oh, sigh, I hope I've been concise enough... Gack, lose, lose, lose... *SIGH* -Don  Date: 9 September 1984 03:17-EDT From: Donald E. Hopkins Subject: Updating the other window in 2 window mode To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Appending to the other buffer (^X A other_buffer_name) in 2 window mode loses by not updating the other buffer on the screen. Also, when editing one buffer in 2 windows (^U ^X 2), if the same text is displayed in both windows, and you change it in one of the windows, it isn't updated in the other. Trivial? Yes... A pain in the ass to fix? Probibly... Worth fixing? Who knows... But none the less, . *SIGH* -Don [Yes, I tested these out in a fresh Emacs.]  Date: 8 September 1984 18:27-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: ^R Forward Sexp To: CL.BOYER @ UTEXAS-20 cc: BUG-emacs @ MIT-ML In-reply-to: Msg of Sat 8 Sep 1984 15:00 CDT from CL.BOYER at UTEXAS-20.ARPA If you can figure out a consistent way to fix it go ahead, but remember that FL is a teco primitive and written in pdp-10 code.  Date: Sat, 8 Sep 1984 15:00 CDT From: CL.BOYER@UTEXAS-20.ARPA To: bug-emacs@ml Subject: ^R Forward Sexp Is it a bug that C-M-Z cannot get from the beginning of this definition to its end? (defun foo () ; ( (a b))  Date: Tue, 4 Sep 1984 21:42 CDT From: CL.BOYER@UTEXAS-20.ARPA To: bug-emacs@mit-mc Subject: ^R Forward Sexp Is it a bug that C-M-Z cannot get from the beginning of this definition to its end? (defun foo () ; ( (a b))  Received: from MIT-EECS by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 4 Sep 84 17:04-EDT Date: Tue 4 Sep 84 17:04:21-EDT From: James R. Melcher Subject: Use of EMACS on TOPS-20 with IBMPC/XT To: emacs-hackers@MIT-OZ cc: bcn@MIT-EECS We are trying to use EMACS when logged into EECS with a PC/XT running UNIX. We are using the canned CONNECT program, and do not have the option of easily changing our terminal characteristics. It is quite inconvenient to reboot PC-DOS in order to run KERMIT or an H-19 emulator. We are not with ATHENA. The VT100 terminal type almost works. We would like to add the IBMPC type to whatever table EMACS uses to decide what it is talking to. By way of example, if we were talking to a UNIX system, we would add a suitable termcap or terminfo entry. Can this be done for the EMACS which runs on EECS? That is, can we define a new terminal type which EMACS could use to talk to us? -------  Date: 30 Aug 1984 06:45 PDT (Thu) Message-ID: From: Sam Hsu To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: need help with Ungermann-Bass interface! Date: Wednesday, 29 August 1984 15:04-PDT From: SLOAN I'm back again, with another problem... His office terminal connects to the outside world (including Ward) via an Ungerman-Bass box which interprets several control characters for its own purposes - making them inconvenient to type. In particular: Character Meaning ^S, ^Q Flow control between terminal and U-B, NOT passed through to Ward ^T CR Hang up. The U-B HOLDS the ^T until it sees the next character; if it IS NOT CR, then both ^T and CR are sent. ^P Datalink escape. Any character treated specially can be quoted by ^P. That's all I've discovered so far. Also, this isn't quite right, since we could not reliably get a ^S to Ward (using ^P^S.); similarly for ^Q. So, the bottom line is: {^P,^Q,^S,^T,...?} are unusable. This is bad, but perhaps there is a work-around? Immediate problems: 1) When typeout longer than 1 page go from Ward to the terminal, output stops at the page break - waiting for the ^Q we can't type. Current fix: set the page length to 0 and try to read fast. Can we do better? 2) EMACS is a disaster without {^P,^Q,^S,^T}. Can you advise on how to bind a different set of keys to get their effects? Note that we really need substitutes for these keys in every context (the fun started when he asked me how to save a file he was editting, and I said "^X^S" - guess what happened?) All help appreciated. -Ken Sloan  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 30 Aug 84 00:11-EDT Date: 30 August 1984 00:10-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: Use of EMACS with PC/IX (IBMPC/XT) To: F.MELCHER @ MIT-EECS cc: bcn @ MIT-EECS, emacs-hackers @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 29 Aug 84 15:16:18-EDT from James R. Melcher It's probably much more beneficial for MIT to develop a winning terminal emulator for the IBM PC. Isn't developing good software one of the points of Athena?  Received: from MIT-EECS by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 29 Aug 84 15:14-EDT Date: Wed 29 Aug 84 15:16:18-EDT From: James R. Melcher Subject: Use of EMACS with PC/IX (IBMPC/XT) To: emacs-hackers@MIT-OZ cc: bcn@MIT-EECS We are dialed up to EECS using an IBMPC/XT running PC/IX (UNIX) and IBM's CONNECT program. It almost works when ter is set to vt100. However, insert line and delete line do not produce the correct result on the screen. A ^L does show the right result after said insert or delete has messed up the display. Can a new term type be defined so that the myriad of PC`s can use EMACS from PC/IX. -------  Date: 22 August 1984 23:56-EDT From: Pandora B. Berman Subject: forwarding...user request To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC i will explain to him how to ask for emacs programming help. ---------- MSG: *MSG 3097 MLY.G.MAK@MIT-OZ 08/20/84 23:12:08 Re: EMACS From: Marshall Knight To: BBOARD@MIT-OZ ANYONE WANT TO ADD ANOTHER VALID TERM TYPE TO EMACS.?. SEND MAIL WITH THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO KNOW TO:MLY.G.MAK@MIT-OZ  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Tue 14 Aug 84 17:03:07-EDT Received: from MIT-MC by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Tue 14 Aug 84 13:55:36-PDT Date: 14 August 1984 16:40-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: Bach's message To: bug-emacs @ SU-SCORE In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 14 Aug 84 13:00:20-PDT from Rene Bach I replied to it.  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Tue 14 Aug 84 16:03:21-EDT Date: Tue 14 Aug 84 13:00:20-PDT From: Rene Bach Subject: Emacs init files To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA I noticed the files in . My terminal is able to emulate VT52, VT100 VT131 and QVT103. Which is the best terminal-file combination to use for EMACS. What needs to be done with the terminal-type.emacs and the terminal-type.:ej files in that directory ? Shall I copy them to my own directory ? Both of them ? Thanks Rene -------  Date: 12 Aug 1984 16:34 EDT (Sun) Message-ID: From: Sundar Narasimhan #Z#@OZ Subject: Question regarding rewiring keys within emacs To: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Hi: I dont know if this is the correct list to send this question to, but I couldnt find any other list more appropriate. I have the following question regarding rewiring keys within emacs. ..^Rc: M.M Foo bar in one's vars file should rewire M-c to execute M-X Foo Bar. 1. How does one rewire keys such that C-X c can do this ? 2. Is there a way one can pass arguments to the function being executed ? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks. Sundar.  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 10 Aug 84 02:19:51-EDT Date: Thu 9 Aug 84 23:15:39-PDT From: Arthur Keller Subject: DSK: and EMACS To: Bug-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA When I define DSK: to be some other directory (I cannot connect there), EMACS doesn't figure this out, and tries to create a new file, even though command recognition at the EXEC level works. Arthur -------  Date: 6 August 1984 13:04-EDT From: Alan Bawden Subject: [DEVON: forwarded] To: DEVON @ MIT-MC, Ian @ SRI-NIC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 5 Aug 1984 23:56 PDT (Sun) from Ian Macky Devon, do you use the MODLIN library? Just idle curiosity, but every interrupt related bug in Emacs I know of only happens to people who turn on real-time interrupts. I'll theorize that HSNAME: only contributed to this problem by being slow enough to make users impatient and interrupt their Emacs's, thus inviting the discovery of delicate timing problems.  Date: 5 Aug 1984 23:56 PDT (Sun) Message-ID: <[SRI-NIC].IAN. 5-Aug-84 23:56:16> From: Ian Macky To: Alan Bawden Cc: Devon@MC, BUG-EMACS@MC Subject: [DEVON: forwarded] Date: Sunday, 5 August 1984 20:51-PDT From: Alan Bawden To: GREN at MIT-MC Re: [DEVON: forwarded] Perhaps this indicates that Emacs thinks there is some operation every device should support, and HS: fails to do so. I believe I had to make DP: support FILLEN, RFDATE, and LNKEDP before Emacs would work acceptably with it. Yeah, EMACS used to die until I supported LNKEDP, but this is something else Date: 5 August 1984 23:10-EDT From: Devon S. McCullough To: BUG-ITS emacs got a .val 0; 35572>>move 1,3 1/17450 3/24 when I tried to find a file on HS: The relevant TECO fragment: TSINT4: SOS TSINT+1 CAIL A,HUSED ;MPV INT: CATCH JUMPS TO RANDOMNESS. .VALUE CAIN A,QLGET3+1 ;IF DECODING A STRING POINTER, GIVE PROPER ERROR. TYPRE [QNS] .SUSET [.RMPVA,,C] ;GET ADR START OF MISSING PAGE. LSH C,-12 CAIN A,EJCMD4 JRST TSIN4A MOVE B,C IMULI B,2000*5 ;; ;; This is where it failed, so apparently there's a bug. ;; CAMGE B,QRWRT ;ALL OF IMPURE STRING SPACE MARKED AS EXISTING SHOULD .VALUE ;REALLY EXIST, OR THERE'S A BUG. ;; ;; ;; TSIN4A: MOVE A,C SKIPN GCPTR ;NORMALLY, DON'T ALLOW USE OF LAST PAGE BLW PURE SPACE AOS A ;BUT ALLOW GC TO USE IT FOR RELOCATION DATA. CAML A,LHIPAG TYPRE [URK] SYSCAL CORBLK,[%CLIMM,,%CBWRT ? %CLIMM,,%JSELF ? C ? %CLIMM,,%JSNEW] .LOSE %LSSYS MOVEI A,1(C) CAMLE A,MEMT ;IF THIS PAGE IS ABOVE ALL OTHERS, ADJUST MEMT. MOVEM A,MEMT JRST TSIL  Date: Thu 2 Aug 84 08:45-EDT From: Berthold K. P. Horn Subject: Crash when directory full To: BUG-emacs@MIT-OZ It seems that LEDIT/EMACS dies when the directory one is working with gets full. Lisp gives nasty messages regarding its subprocess LEDIT in this case, and there seems to be no way to recover the editor. Since the latest changes are not written out in the process, work may be lost. Expunging files does not help, the LISP to EMACS connection is garbled permanently.  Date: 1 August 1984 13:42-EDT From: Christopher C. Stacy Subject: EMACS not working on MC, and BUG-EMACS broken To: RIG @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-ITS @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 1 Aug 1984 13:12-EDT from Ronald I. Greenberg The mail receipt you received from the COMSAT only indicates that a there is an addressee (ECARTER@OFFICE-2) who is a member of the BUG-EMACS mailing list, but who in fact does not exist. Your message was delivered to all the other BUG-EMACS people. I just tried EMACS on MC, and it is working fine.  Date: 1 August 1984 12:39-EDT From: Ronald I. Greenberg To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC A little while ago, while logged on to MC I find EMACS working improperly. For example, c-E, m-F, and m-B were going to incorrect places. One time m-F took me backwards one character! I would be interested in finding out what was wrong. Ron Greenberg rig@mc  Date: 30 July 1984 13:55-EDT From: Stephen Gildea Subject: line w! rapping To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC I would like to inquire why emacs does something the way it does. Suppose I am working on an 80-column terminal. If I have a line which is exactly 80 characters long, it could be displayed all on one line. However, instead emacs puts a ! in column 80 an the last character on the next line. This is annoying when editting a file containing many lines of exactly 80 columns. I would think the right way to do it would be to put character 80 at the end of the line, then if I type in an 81st character, put in the ! and move 80 and 81 to the next line.  Date: Fri 27 Jul 84 22:18:07-PDT From: Tim Gonsalves Subject: Bug in Pascal mode To: bug-emacs@SU-SIERRA.ARPA While using Pascal mode, if I use at the end of a line containing balanced parentheses to auto-indent the next line, I get the error msg: UTC Unterminated Conditional? and the next line is not indented. Auto-indentation works normally if there is a extra ')' on the line (but the compiler finds this unacceptable). The problem occurs whether or not I use my emacs.vars file. I do not have an emacs.init file. (I reported this a couple of weeks ago with no apparent response. Is the bug being looked into?) Tim Gonsalves -------  Date: Tue 24 Jul 84 17:41-EDT From: Philip E. Agre Subject: mail buffer To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ CC: oz-suggestions@MIT-OZ C-U C-X M should get you back into the *Mail* buffer even if you left it with C-X B rather than with C-]. Presently it says "You are already in the process of sending mail?". Multiple mail buffers would be nice; I often want to send mail while composing mail in a mail buffer. They could be called *Mail1* or something. Seems reasonable if you can use buffer moving commands to move amongst them. Used to be that C-X M smashed any existing mail buffer. Understand that I'm not asking for those days to return. /phil  Date: Thu 19 Jul 84 14:42:23-EDT From: Joseph E. Stoy Subject: My last bug report To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA cc: jes@MIT-XX.ARPA Please ignore it - it's my terminal generating C-S's all by itself. It will be spoken to severely and stopped from doing so. -------  Date: Thu 19 Jul 84 14:36:58-EDT From: Joseph E. Stoy Subject: Tabs and I-Search To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA cc: jes@MIT-XX.ARPA After starting EMACS on MIT-XX (EMACS version 163, TECO 1209), with the following EMACS.VARS file: Auto Fill Mode: 1 Auto Save Default: 1 Bottom DisplayMargin: 5 Display Mode Line Inverse: 1 Fill Column: 79 Save All Buffers: 1 I type A C-B TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB TAB C-A C-D C-D C-D C-D (12 of them) (four or more) and I find I'm in I-Search mode. joe stoy -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Tue 17 Jul 84 01:57:13-EDT Received: from MIT-MC by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Mon 16 Jul 84 22:55:12-PDT Date: 17 July 1984 01:55-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: bug in emacs PASCAL major mode. To: PDH @ SU-SCORE cc: bug-emacs @ SU-SCORE In-reply-to: Msg of Thu 12 Jul 84 12:04:59-PDT from Peter D. Henry fixed in the source; will be in next release.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 17 Jul 84 01:54-EDT Date: 17 July 1984 01:54-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: file name in modeline To: ZVONA @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Mon 16 Jul 1984 17:33 EDT from ZVONA at MIT-OZ If you read the documentation you'd see how to set this.  Date: Mon, 16 Jul 1984 17:33 EDT Message-ID: From: ZVONA@MIT-OZ To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: file name in modeline Using the modeline library, if you have a long directory name, the filename can disappear outside the window it has to fit in. Zmacs solves this problem by displaying the filename first, a space, and then the directory name. This would be featuroidal.  Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 22:40:28-PDT From: Tim Gonsalves Subject: Bug in Pascal mode To: bug-emacs@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Reply-To: Gonsalves@SU-Sierra.Arpa When I use at the end of a statement to auto-indent the next line, if the statement contains a pair(s) of parentheses the cursor jumps to the first '(' with the error msg: UTC Unterminated conditional? at the top of the window. A new line is inserted, but not indented. When I type the ')', the cursor momentarily jumps to the correct '(' as it should. I was able to get rid of the UTC msg by typing an extra ')'. However, the compiler does not like this! This did not happen when I last used Pascal mode, some days ago. Removing my emacs.vars file made no difference. I have no emacs.init file. - Tim Gonsalves -------  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Thu 12 Jul 84 17:25:09-EDT Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 12:04:59-PDT From: Peter D. Henry Subject: bug in emacs PASCAL major mode. To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA you should set the load library commands for WORDAB and WRSOME (about 68% of the way into emacs:pascal.emacs to include the directory specification emacs:, otherwise the library will not always load correctly. Peter -------  Date: Thu 12 Jul 84 13:11:26-PDT From: COLE@SRI-KL.ARPA Subject: EMACS question To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: cole@SRI-KL.ARPA Can you tell me what to put into an EMACS.INIT file so that key re-assignments are NOT done when a library is loaded? Specifically, when SCRIBE mode is loaded I do not want the usual key reassignments done. Thanks - Susan -------  Date: 3 July 1984 17:29-EDT From: Leo P. Harten To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC the file lph;frectt 1 was read into emacs via cntrl-x cntrl-v. i searched for EF1 and then went to beginning of line with cntrl-a. then meta-x grind macsyma code resulted in the destruction of the buffer and an out-of-range error.  Date: Sun, 24 Jun 1984 19:58 EDT Message-ID: From: EB@MIT-OZ To: Bug-Emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Auto Save messes up version number I have Auto Save mode turned on. Suppose I do the following: edit FOO.TXT with ^X^F; say the actual version is FOO.TXT.69 make a change in FOO.TXT get out with ^Z^Z, thus forcing an auto save get back in do M-X Revert File Then the version number for FOO.TXT in the mode line will not be 69 as it should be, but will be FOO.TXT.1 (or whatever the version number of the auto-save file was). This confuses numerous parts of Emacs, so I generally have to kill the buffer and read the file in again.  Received: from LLL-MFE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Mon 18 Jun 84 14:52:22-EDT Date: Mon, 18 Jun 84 18:48 GMT From: SAMUELSON%LLL@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Norm Samuelson : Editing directory from EMACS] To: bug-emacs@ÍIT-XX.ARPAŠ Telephone: (415) 422-0661, [FTS 532-0661] Office-Location: Bldg 543, room 1067 Postal-Address: LLNL, PO Box 5511, L-630, Livermore, CA 94550 I dont expect EMACS to delete offline files (it would be a nice additional feature, but it is NOT a bug that it does not do it now). The bug is that when the delete fails, it does not release the JFN. -Sam - --------------- Mail-From: WHITNEY created at 18-Jun-84 11:06:17 Date: Mon 18 Jun 84 11:06:17-PDT From: Darrel Whitney Subject: Editing directory from EMACS To: samuELSON@LLL.MFE Sam, I tried editing my directory from within EMACS. When I gave the command to update the directory, most of the files could not be deleted because they were offline. The problem was that all of these files were given a JFN. The result was that I could not run many of the EXEC routines. Finnaly I stumbled on the close command and was able to clear most of the JFNs. There were some that remained. Did I use the directory editor incorrectly?? Darrel -------  Date: 8 June 1984 06:22-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: terminal characteristics on TOPS-20 To: MRC @ SU-SCORE cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Thu 7 Jun 84 15:20:38-PDT from Mark Crispin Will be in version 165.  Date: Thu 7 Jun 84 15:20:38-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: terminal characteristics on TOPS-20 To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA Postal-Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041 Phone: (415) 497-1407 (Stanford); (415) 968-1052 (residence) It would really be nice if EMACS condescended to restore the TTY characteristics (in particular the STIW% words) when exiting instead of trusting the superior to do it. -- Mark -- -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 3 Jun 84 16:12-EDT Date: Sun 3 Jun 84 13:09:19-PDT From: Witold Paluszynski Subject: a problem with inferior Emacs To: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA When I invoke Emacs as an inferior fork (from MM) and then invoke inferior Exec from inside it Emacs outputs a and 24 's so that the screen becomes blank before actually starting Exec. Why? Note that it happens only when Emacs is starting up, not when it is restarted. My terminal is a zenith. This is not a big problem but has been around only since very recently. Perhaps something got changed and can be changed back. Thanks, Witold -------  Date: 3 Jun 84 02:20 EDT (Sun) From: _Bob To: Bug-EMACS@MC, Bug-BABYL@MC, ARMS-D@MC, Info-LAW@MC, H19-People@MC Subject: Please Add Me Please add me to the mailing list. Tnx, _Bob  Date: 31 May 1984 20:47-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: MLY's message To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC answered.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 30 May 84 16:11-EDT Date: 30 May 1984 16:11-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: Phase of the Moon To: Mly @ MIT-OZ cc: GLS @ MIT-MC, bug-teco @ MIT-OZ, bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ, sr.ehpyc @ MIT-SPEECH, SR.KAUFMAN @ MIT-SPEECH In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 30 May 84 13:23:28-EDT from Richard "Miserable Cloudy Day for the Partial Eclipse. FOO!!!" Mlynarik Hmm, I just checked it, and GLS's code contains the following comment: ;;; THIS ROUTINE IS NOT TRULY ACCURATE, THEY SAY, BUT WHO CARES? Oh well.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 30 May 84 16:03-EDT Date: 30 May 1984 16:03-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: Phase of the Moon To: Mly @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-teco @ MIT-OZ, bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ, sr.ehpyc @ MIT-SPEECH, SR.KAUFMAN @ MIT-SPEECH In-reply-to: Msg of Wed 30 May 84 13:23:28-EDT from Richard "Miserable Cloudy Day for the Partial Eclipse. FOO!!!" Mlynarik What's wrong with the algorithm in Maclisp?  Date: Wed 30 May 84 13:23:28-EDT From: Richard "Miserable Cloudy Day for the Partial Eclipse. FOO!!!" Mlynarik Subject: Re: Phase of the Moon Sender: MLY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: SR.KAUFMAN%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-teco%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, sr.ehpyc%MIT-SPEECH@MIT-MC.ARPA Reply-To: MLY@MIT-OZ.#Chaos In-Reply-To: Message from ""David H. Kaufman" " of Wed 30 May 84 12:28:00-EDT Date: 30 May 1984 12:28 EDT (Wed) From: "David H. Kaufman" To: bug-emacs@oz, bug-teco@oz cc: sr.ehpyc@MIT-SPEECH, sr.kaufman@MIT-SPEECH Subject: Phase of the Moon Wednesday, May 30,,1984 NM+21H.21M.31S. According to the Miniature Almanac in today's Boston Globe (page 55), the New Moon is at 12:49 PM today (that is, in about 1/2 hour), not 21 hours ago. DHK P.S. If anybody has a *working* algorithm for finding the phase of the moon, I'd love to see it. There are good algorithms (though getting a *little* dated now -- but nothing that can't be fixed by looking up newer orbital elements in an ephemeris) in mit-xx:celest.mud. I started translating these into zetalisp at one stage, and will probably finish doing that sometime later this month, now that I know that somebody else realizes what a fantastically important undertaking that is. -------  Received: from MIT-SPEECH by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 30 May 84 12:27-EDT Date: 30 May 1984 12:28 EDT (Wed) Message-ID: From: "David H. Kaufman" To: bug-emacs@oz, bug-teco@oz cc: sr.ehpyc@MIT-SPEECH, sr.kaufman@MIT-SPEECH Subject: Phase of the Moon Output from the EG command: 840530 122359 SS: SS:MAIL.TEMP.0 Wednesday, May 30,,1984 NM+21H.21M.31S. According to the Miniature Almanac in today's Boston Globe (page 55), the New Moon is at 12:49 PM today (that is, in about 1/2 hour), not 21 hours ago. DHK P.S. If anybody has a *working* algorithm for finding the phase of the moon, I'd love to see it.  Date: Tue 29 May 84 11:19:02-PDT From: COLE@SRI-KL.ARPA Subject: Re: EMACS question To: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA" of Mon 28 May 84 14:10:58-PDT Thanks. As long as I have your attention, there is something I have always wished I knew how to do - maybe you know. Has anyone ever figured out how to make tabs behave like motion commands instead of insert commands? (just moving the cursor to the next tab stop instead of adding a bunch of spaces). Ideally, they would behave like motion commands if one were in the middle of a line, but like space-inserting commands if one were at the end of the text on a line. This would be a boon to many users here. Susan -------  Date: Tue 29 May 84 04:20-EDT From: Richard Mlynarik Subject: filename completion in twenex emacs To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ m-x write region and m-x insert file (perhaps among others) do not hack  filename completion. Is there a good reason why this is so? If not, this would seem a desirable thing.  Date: 28 May 1984 18:13-EDT From: Philip E. Agre Subject: word counting To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Does anyone know of a M-X Count Words In Region or some such (that tries to do the right thing wrt text formatter commands)? /phil  Date: Sun, 27 May 1984 15:20 EDT Message-ID: From: "Leigh L. Klotz" To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA # TRMTYP Ambassador is 46 <--right # TRMTYP Ann Arbor is 15 <--wrong  Date: Thu 24 May 84 20:47:01-EDT From: Gail Zacharias Subject: Re: "Made it." To: KMP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-mm%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Kent M Pitman " of Thu 24 May 84 16:52:11-EDT I can't duplicate this. Moreover, the string "Made it" doesn't seem to appear anywhere in MM sources nor EMACS:MMAIL.EMACS. Could you send in a photo? Also, can you try it without your init files? -------  Date: Thu 24 May 84 18:36-EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ The Made it seems to have come from Peter Gergely's changes to MMAIL and looks like a debugging thing. I did a srccom and saw it. I'll take it out and recompile it.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 24 May 84 18:05-EDT Date: Thu 24 May 84 14:51:09-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: "Made it." To: KMP%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-mm%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Kent M Pitman " of Thu 24 May 84 13:51:14-PDT Postal-Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041 Phone: (415) 497-1407 (Stanford); (415) 968-1052 (residence) That doesn't happen at Score and I have never heard of it. It must be an OZism. -------  Date: Thu 24 May 84 16:51-EDT From: Kent M Pitman Subject: "Made it." To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, bug-mm@MIT-OZ In an Emacs editor under MM when editing a message I'm replying to, if I do c-m-Y to yank the message being replied to, Emacs types out "Made it." rather than just silently yanking the message. Is this a feature? What for? Slow baud-rate terminals? If so, could it be baud-rate conditionalized? If it's just a debugging feature, could it be removed or commented out? I find it quite obnoxious.  Date: 23 May 1984 16:46-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: I answered COLE@SRI-KL To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC  Date: Wed 23 May 84 09:40:54-PDT From: COLE@SRI-KL.ARPA Subject: EMACS question To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: cole@SRI-KL.ARPA What is meant by "non-zero precomma argument"? How would one give such an argument? Thanks - Susan Cole -------  Date: Fri, 18 May 1984 21:49 EDT Message-ID: From: Eugene Ciccarelli To: BUG-EMACS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Auto Save filename On Twenex, when there are no Buffer Filenames, the following code sets the autosave filename based on the Buffer Name: fq(fs d fn2)"e !* On Twenex, use buffer name as extension! q:.b(Q1+1!*Bufnam!)fs DFN2'' !* unless otherwise specified.! This is not robust, and Babyl users can run into a typical case: The user is editing mail to send, in the *Mail* buffer, and turns on Auto Save Mode. The autosave filenames chosen are [SAVE].*MAIL*.0. The asterisks, however, cause invalid-wildcard-designator errors. They need to be quoted with ^V. How about having this code do something like the following: fq(fs d fn2)"e !* On Twenex, use buffer name as extension! !* unless otherwise specified.! q:.b(Q1+1!*Bufnam!)@:fcu2 !* 2: Uppercased buffer name.! et 2'' !* Set FS DFN2, quoting unusual! !* characters, such as *.!  Date: 10 May 1984 00:09-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: More WORDAB lossage To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC After killing my wordab library I could no longer create a buffer.  Date: 9 May 1984 23:46-EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: WORDAB library To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Wordab should switch off wordab mode in all buffers when the library is killed.  Date: Sat 5 May 84 19:49:36-PDT From: Greg Satz Subject: tags find file To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA Didn't the variable tags find file make the C-X C-V be a C-X C-F instead?. It seems this has changed with version 163. Am I crazy or just plain confused? -------  Date: 25 April 1984 20:11-EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: twenex send complaint To: BILLW @ SRI-KL cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, CENT @ MIT-MC, hlv @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of 25 Apr 1984 01:15-PST from BILLW at SRI-KL Well, you also need to catch the [System Expunge Completed] messages and such. I think these are the most difficult, since they require the Twenex site to incorporate changes into the monitor.  Date: 25 Apr 1984 01:15-PST Sender: BILLW@SRI-KL Subject: Re: twenex send complaint From: BILLW@SRI-KL To: CENT@MIT-MC Cc: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC Message-ID: <[SRI-KL]25-Apr-84 01:15:23.BILLW> In-Reply-To: The message of 24 April 1984 23:38-EST from Pandora B. Berman At a recent DECUS, it was suggested that there be a way to trap messages sent by the system, so that a user program could do whatever it wanted with them. DEC was relatively receptive, but I doubt whether this will ever actually come to exist, given DECs 20 decisions. Even if this were done, the mailer, and the user SEND program dont use that form of SENDing to a terminal anyway. theoretically, it would be possible to have EMACS trap SENDs now. All it would take is modifications to TECO, SNDSRV, and MMAILR... Any Volunteers? BillW  Date: 24 April 1984 23:38-EST From: Pandora B. Berman Subject: twenex send complaint To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC forwarding.... ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 1984 19:02 EST Message-ID: From: HLV%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-oz%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: dms%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA When in emacs and a send comes through, the result is a jumble of characters on the screen. Would it be possible to have the exec clear the screen in this case? That would make it far easier to read the incoming message. (Or would that cause far more problems than it creates?)  Date: Tue 24 Apr 84 10:24:46-EST From: Dave Braunegg Subject: a question To: EMACS-HACKERS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA There are several system programs that call up EMACS as a sub-fork (MM, LISP, and WATSON come to mind as examples). Is there any way to get these programs to use an existing EMACS fork instead of calling up a new one? This would save a lot of waiting around when the load is high and also save the system a bit of work and core if it could use the existing copy instead of making a new one. Thanks, Dave -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 23 Apr 84 15:32-EST Date: 23 Apr 1984 12:29 PST (Mon) Message-ID: From: Sam Hsu To: Witold Paluszynski Cc: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA Subject: a write to an LPT: device doesn't work In-reply-to: Msg of 23 Apr 1984 12:00-PST from Witold Paluszynski this is because teco writes to [teco].output first, and then renames. there is a library called print.:ej that uses the other teco output command and is for writing stuff to non-renamable devices (lpt:).  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 23 Apr 84 15:02-EST Date: Mon 23 Apr 84 12:00:01-PST From: Witold Paluszynski Subject: a write to an LPT: device doesn't work To: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA That's right, EMACS doesn't seem to be able to handle a physical device right. When I do a C-X C-W LPT: it complains about a directory name not in a right position. It was when EMACS was run as an internal fork in MM program. I didn't check standalone EMACS. Oh, LPT: is our printer. Witold -------  Date: Fri, 20 Apr 84 11:46 EST From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: switching terminal parameters on/off To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA When I supdup to its I set %tosai. This is fine except when hacking teco code. Is there any way to turn this on and off from teco (i.e. in my teco mode hook)? david  Return-Path: <@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA:SHULMAN@RUTGERS.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by RUTGERS.ARPA with TCP; 13 Apr 84 18:11:14 EST Received: from RUTGERS.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 13 Apr 84 14:43:47-PST Date: 13 Apr 84 17:43:21 EST From: Jeffrey Shulman Subject: EMACS not updating the cursor position To: info-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: dolphin-users@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: 13 Apr 84 20:48:54 EST ReSent-from: Jeffrey Shulman ReSent-to: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA Our EMACS seems to have developed a strange problem lately that nobody can explain (there are no apparent software changes): Over an Interlisp-D CHAT connection, EMACS is not responding to cursor positioning commands sent by the mouse. For example, the mouse would say C-U 4 C-F and the cursor would just stay still. If you refresh the screen with a ^L you *will* find the cursor in the correct place. If you type the command by hand it works! We have determined that EMACS *is* seeing the commands (via ^_L) but is *not* sending cursor positioning back to the NVT (running EMACS under PHOTO.) It *did* work about two weeks ago just fine but is not working now. Does anyone have any possible explaination? Jeff P.S. The particulars are: The CHAT program emulates a DM2500 We are using EMACS version 162 on a DEC-20 -------  Date: 13 Apr 84 17:43:21 EST From: Jeffrey Shulman Subject: EMACS not updating the cursor position To: info-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: dolphin-users@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Our EMACS seems to have developed a strange problem lately that nobody can explain (there are no apparent software changes): Over an Interlisp-D CHAT connection, EMACS is not responding to cursor positioning commands sent by the mouse. For example, the mouse would say C-U 4 C-F and the cursor would just stay still. If you refresh the screen with a ^L you *will* find the cursor in the correct place. If you type the command by hand it works! We have determined that EMACS *is* seeing the commands (via ^_L) but is *not* sending cursor positioning back to the NVT (running EMACS under PHOTO.) It *did* work about two weeks ago just fine but is not working now. Does anyone have any possible explaination? Jeff P.S. The particulars are: The CHAT program emulates a DM2500 We are using EMACS version 162 on a DEC-20 -------  Date: 6 April 1984 00:07-EST From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: C-X F To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Can I change C-X F to nop if not given an explicit argument? I type it instead of C-X C-F enough to disable it in my init. david  Date: 5 Apr 1984 14:43 EST (Thu) Message-ID: From: Rich Robbins Subject: dired extension To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA It would be nice if one could enter a subdirectory while in dired. For instance suppose I am in my login directory and I enter dired and decide that I would like to continue the dired session in which is one of my subdirectories. Kind of like doing a recursive edit on a file .... Rich  Date: 5 April 1984 03:32-EST From: Greg Skinner To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC how do I generate a control-% on a h19/vt52 so I can use the M-X query replace (replace string?) command?  Date: 4 April 1984 17:40-EST From: Leigh L. Klotz To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Sometimes when I do M-X TCompile I get a QNS error on a  followed by a q-register, like Q1, which contains the EMACS version number. I don't understand how it happens -- it does it while trying to create the MM function. I just discovered today that if I narrow the bounds to the function it doesn't happen. If anybody has any theories, let me know. It happens to me only occasionally. Leigh.  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Tue 3 Apr 84 16:28:39-EST Date: Tue 3 Apr 84 13:24:45-PST From: Jon Abbis Subject: Internal emacs help To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA Stanford-Phone: (415) 497-3154 How does one get into the internal emacs help tree. I have tried C-_ and all the other ways that they have suggested, but to no avail. Thanks. -Jon -------  Date: 3 Apr 1984 12:21 PST (Tue) Message-ID: From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Cc: Greg Satz Subject: new emacs mods (EXECED) In-reply-to: Msg of 3 Apr 1984 11:16-PST from Greg Satz I've made a couple fixes to the EDIT changes I announced, to improve some RSCAN handling and to work reasonably well if the user types ^C while EMACS is reading in the file. The sources and SRCCOM are in the same place.  Date: Sun 1 Apr 84 15:57:26-PST From: David Eppstein Subject: Improved TOPS-20 EDIT command To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA I have finished making the improvements to the EDIT command I mentioned. The changes are: (1) Use full name of file always, so EMACS doesn't get confused (3) Add /GOTO: switch to go to a specific character in a file (for programs like TeX to use to go to error locations) (2) Reuse old EMACS fork even if given a new filename, using FS SUPERIOR. Contrary to what I said in the previous two messages, this should require no changes to EMACS itself. A SRCCOM of EXECED.MAC is available in EXECED.DIF on Sierra; you will also need to add GOTOR as a global somewhere (I did it in EXECGL). I don't think this relies on any other Stanford changes... David -------  Date: 1 Apr 1984 15:01 PST (Sun) Message-ID: From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: More FS SUPERIOR Problem: Syntax for FS SUPERIOR and normal JCL are different. Cure: Add the following line to EMACS:EMACS.INIT after the line that looks for commands after an escape: J :S,"N .(ZJJI),Z@FX1 -D' !* IF LOCATION TO GO TO, ADD IT TO Q1! A better solution would also put the escape code in FS SUPERIOR, or make a common routine for them both to call. In case you are wondering why I care about all of this, I am working on the EXEC EDIT command so that it uses FS SUPERIOR if you ask to edit a file and you already have an EMACS fork, and to have a switch so that you can type @EDIT /GOTO:123 FILE and be put at character 123 of the file (this would be for programs such as TeX that like to put you in the editor at the position of an error).  Date: Sun 1 Apr 84 14:37:32-PST From: David Eppstein Subject: Problem with default FS SUPERIOR To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA Problem: It is impossible to use FS SUPERIOR to read a file name from JCL. If the JCL has a CRLF at the end, that gets put into the filename. If there is no CRLF, EMACS bombs out with an illegal instruction. Cure: Add a J :L .,ZK before the first J :S,$ in & Default FS SUPERIOR. Then use JCL as usual with a CRLF (or not if you can convince EMACS not to die)... -------  Date: Mon, 26 Mar 1984 16:30 EST Message-ID: From: STRAZ%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, dughof%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: suggestion Is there a palindrome mode for emacs? I'd like to edit palindromes by setting up one character (or a pair of characters) as the middle, and type at either end. Adding or deleting a character should be reflected in the other half of the palindrome.  Date: 26 Mar 1984 09:48 EST (Mon) Message-ID: From: David Siegel Subject: spelling corrector and emacs To: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Does anyone know how to get the spelling corrector program on OZ to interace with Emacs correctly? When I type meta-x correct spelling things do not work correctly. The spelling program does not find the correct temp file that emacs writes out, for example. -Dave  Date: 26 Mar 1984 09:50 EST (Mon) Message-ID: From: David Siegel Subject: correction to spelling correction question To: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Actually, the spelling program works correctly from emacs, the problem comes up when I'm in Babyl. If I want to run the corrector on some mail I'm sending out the previously described problems come up. Sorry for the confusion, -Dave  Date: Saturday, 24 March 1984 00:38-EST Message-ID: Sender: "Thomas A. Russ" From: "Thomas A. Russ" To: BUG-operator%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: funny terminal support ReSent-From: GZ@MIT-OZ ReSent-To: bug-emacs ReSent-Date: Sat 24 Mar 1984 07:21-EST I have a TVI912/920 type terminal (in reality, an Osborne 1) which does NOT require the fill characters required by the genuine article. (it also displays about 100 characters per line on my external monitor.) I am presently telling emacs that it is an adm3a, which is aceptible, but on certain commands, less than perfect (I keep repainting t|he screen with on certain commands, less than perfect (*I keep repainting the screen with control-l, etc). Is there some way to tell yemacs precisely what kludge it yis talking to (eg, specify fill characters, width, etc). elliott smith, temporarily on medg.tar (for 6.863 ps/lab)  Date: 21 March 1984 23:07-EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Sender: TIM @ MIT-MC To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC cc: SUNDAR @ MIT-MC, HENRY @ MIT-MC Perhaps we should make the current definition of M-( and M-), ^R Make (), and ^R Move Over () look at the character they're put on instead of bilidnly using ()'s always. Was there some reason this wasn't done before? Leigh.  Date: Wed 21 Mar 84 00:00:12-EST From: SUNDAR%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: ^R Make [] and ^R Make {} To: henry%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Henry: Is there a way I could get to use the ^R Make {} and ^R Make [] (similar to the ^R Make ()) ? I looked through ps: and found a file ps:henry.emacs which has these definitions. Is there a way I could get to use these without going through loading in all your other redefinitions ? Thanks -------  Date: Tue 20 Mar 84 18:05:42-EST From: Dave Braunegg Subject: matching {} To: EMACS-HACKERS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I have seen someone (Dan Brotsky) with his EMACS customized to automatically insert a matching (, {, or [ after a ), }, or ] (respectively). The cursor is then left between the () to allow text to be inserted. Dan does this in his own macro file (which has other features that I don't want and I can't figure it out anyway) and I believe that other people have this in INIT files. Can anyone help me get the appropriate code to generate the matching delimiters? I would like it for (), {}, and []. I would also like it for matching $$ if I can hook it to only happen in TEX mode. If these can not be hooked into TEX and LISP modes only, then I can live with the keys always defined in this manner. It seems to me that this feature would be handy to have in an EMACS library--I would think that several people would use it if available. Thanks for your help. Dave -------  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Mon 19 Mar 84 01:12:11-EST Return-Path: Received: from COLUMBIA-20.ARPA by SRI-KL.ARPA with TCP; Sun 18 Mar 84 19:27:58-PST Date: Sun 18 Mar 84 22:26:23-EST From: The Mailer To: BILLW@SRI-KL.ARPA Subject: Message of 15-Mar-84 21:59:22 Redistributed-To: bug-emacs@XX, bug-teco@XX Redistributed-By: BILLW at SRI-KL Redistributed-Date: 18 Mar 1984 Message undeliverable and dequeued after 3 days: CCIMS.Beecher@CUTC20: Cannot connect to host. ------------ Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by COLUMBIA-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 15 Mar 84 21:59:26-EST Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Thu 15 Mar 84 18:55:30-PST Date: Thu 15 Mar 84 18:54:50-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: making EMACS more efficient on TOPS20 To: tops20@SU-SCORE.ARPA I have implemented half of the much requested EMACS mode for the tops20 TEXTI jsys. (break on meta characters remains undone). While I was at it, I made some changes to TTYSRV to make short string output to terminal more efficient. The patches have been running at SRI for quite a while now with no obvious ill effects. The changes to EMACS are less well debugged, but seem to work for the most part.... I have not done any performance measurements to figure out how much this has helped, but it seems that it ought to do quite a bit... Interested parties may FTP the following files from the EMACS directory on SRI-KL: TEXTI.MEM Describes the changes to the monitor. TECO.DIF SRCCOM of the new TECO with the standard MIT TECO.MID.1209. TECO.MID.1237 is the updated source code.... Enjoy BillW PS: This should serve as an example: people have been suggesting changes such as this for a long time, but nothing had ever been done. I had assumed that this was because it had been looked at and people had decided that it was too difficult, and would not have done anything except for the prompting of kirk lougheed at sierra. As it turned out, the patches were not difficult at all! Everyone seems to have just been waiting for someone else to do it... My thanks to Kirk Lougheed for help debugging the new monitor, and for general advice on monitor internals; to Mike McMahon for help with TECO internals; and to the staff and users at SRI for their bug reports and tolerence... ------- -------  Date: Wed 14 Mar 84 11:06:38-PST From: David Shur Subject: Using EMACS with ANSI terminal. To: bug-emacs@SU-SIERRA.ARPA cc: shur@SU-SIERRA.ARPA We have a SUN workstation that emulates an ANSI terminal. When we set the terminal type to VT100 things almost work. However when a region is deleted the local frame buffer is not updated. Would it be possible to define an ANSI terminal type, so we can run EMACS properly? Thanks, David Shur. -------  Received: from SCRC-MERRIMACK by SCRC-STONY-BROOK with CHAOS; Mon 12-Mar-84 22:35:31-EST Date: Mon, 12 Mar 84 22:33 EST From: Mike McMahon Subject: GC not reclaiming impure strings held by macro frames To: Kent M Pitman cc: BUG-TECO@MIT-MC.ARPA, BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA, BUG-NEX@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: The message of 10 Mar 84 18:48-EST from Kent M Pitman Message-ID: <840312223310.2.MMcM@TENEX.SCRC.Symbolics> Date: 10 March 1984 18:48-EST From: Kent M Pitman It looks probable that Teco is considering all macro frames to be live, rather checking to see if they really are. Your guess is right. To do it your way, you can change GCC2 to chain through the macro pdl list starting with what's in MACPTR and following by way of MFLINK. Something like (untested of course): GCC1: MOVE T,MACPTR GCC2: MOVEI T,MFCSTR(T) ;POINT TO CSTR SKIPE (T) CALL GCMA ADDI T,MFARG1-MFCSTR CALL GCM ;MARK MACRO ARG 1 (MAY BE A STRING POINTER) ADDI T,MFARG2-MFARG1 CALL GCM ;MARK MACRO ARG 2 SKIPE T,MFLINK-MFARG2(T) JRST GCC2 Probably an easier solution is to have FLSFRM do SETZM MFCPTR+1(A), so that the (now dead) frame doesn't point to the string at all.  Date: 12 March 1984 14:55-EST From: Earl A. Killian Subject: Updating marks in EMACS. To: BRADFORD @ SU-SIERRA cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Sat 10 Mar 84 04:52:36-PST from Ethan Bradford I recomend the following low-level algorithm for updating marks: The list of marks is kept as a sorted list of real buffer offsets (i.e. include the size of the gap when they're above it). The position of gap in the mark list is maintained. The only mark updating ever required is when the gap is moved, and when the gap is widened. In both cases the work required is proportional to the number of marks in the characters moved/deleted. For an implementation of this algorithm in Lisp, see MC:EAK;BUFFER >. There is also a Pascal version if you prefer.  Date: 10 March 1984 18:48-EST From: Kent M Pitman Subject: GC not reclaiming impure strings held by macro frames To: BUG-TECO @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-NEX @ MIT-MC This message records a discussion I had with RMS regarding a probable bug in the Teco GC relating to impure strings held by inactive macro frame pointers. I have a Teco init file for dumping an Emacs which does some setup, then does: er  @y fsrgetty"n@' ftAttempting to macro buffer... :m(hfx*)' The start file which gets loaded is very large (about 5K) and does :m(@:i*| -1f? ei@ejw@ft Dumped to N 0fsechoactivew164000.fs exit|) at the end of it so that the 5K string can get reclaimed by the -f? Unfortunately, if I read the resulting BIN file into an editor and search for the 5K start file, I find that the string is still present and not getting GC'd. From DDT, did searching for the ASCII text of the start file and found the rubout leading off that string to be in the first char of 47440(8) Given that QRBUF holds 277306(8), I computed the string pointer as -34359735078(10), which Teco recognizes as a valid string pointer and g(-34359735078) seems to yank my start file so I'm sure I'm looking at the right object. Using W from DDT again, I determined that the only locations pointing to -34359735078(10) are MFSTRT+20, MFSTRT+27, MFSTRT+36, and MFSTRT+54, so it looks to me like it's Teco internals that is holding onto the only pointer to this. It looks probable that Teco is considering all macro frames to be live, rather checking to see if they really are. For now I will attempt to kludge around this by making my start file into a library and just not :EJ'ing it upon startup after dump, but if someone who knows enough to fix this bug for real could do so, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, -kmp  Date: Sat, 10 Mar 1984 12:48 EST Message-ID: From: CPH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: Bug-EMACS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Journal Files I have been trying to use the JOURNAL library to keep records of my keyboard interactions so I can analyze what character sequences I most often type while editing. Unfortunately, the library doesn't seem to work as advertised. It is claimed in the EMACS manual that the journal file is updated every 50 characters. As far as I can tell, this is completely untrue. The output file is created, empty, and NEVER is any information written in it unless M-X End Journal File is invoked. Does anyone know anything about this that I don't? Is there some aspect of the operation that I have overlooked, or is the library just broken? I really want to get records of my editing sessions to analyze.  Date: Sat 10 Mar 84 04:52:36-PST From: Ethan Bradford Subject: Updating marks in EMACS. To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA I have made fixes to TECO and EMACS to implement marks which are updated for changes before them in the buffer. Here is a copy of my announcement of the release locally: We have put up a new version of EMACS on SIERRA. This is a test release and it is not yet available on the other DEC-20's. The new release implements marks which (1) are automatically updated for changes in the buffer (standard TECO marks are screwed up if you insert or delete characters before them in the buffer) and (2) are specific to one buffer (thus setting an updating mark in one buffer will not mess up the mark stack in other buffers). The useful functions are in the library MARKER; to get them you must give the command M-X Load Library$MARKER . When you load MARKER you will find C-@ set to the function M-X ^R Set/Pop Updating Mark$ and C-X C-X set to the function M-X ^R Exchange Point and Updating Mark$. These will work pretty much like the old C-@ and C-X C-X. If you kill the library, the old definitions will be restored. You will have to be aware, when you use this package, that currently all the other functions in the system use the old, TECO marks. This is fine for functions which just read the mark because ^@ and ^X^X will still set the TECO mark; otherwise, use ^U^X^X to make the updating mark match the TECO mark. Other useful new functions are M-X Make Marker$ and M-X Access Marker$, which respectively save and access a marker stored in a single letter variable (which you will provide). Suggestions and bug reports should be sent to Ethan Bradford (BRADFORD@SIERRA). (If you want to look at any of the files, SIERRA keeps its EMACS files in the directory (or use EMACS: instead of a directory name) and Sierra supports the anonymous FTP login (i.e. login as ANONYMOUS with password GUEST from FTP). The main reason I'm sending this message is that I need help in deciding how thoroughly the changes should be integrated with the rest of EMACS. In the current implementation, the MIDAS code for TECO just keeps a list (in a buffer) of the changes made and the TECO code for EMACS uses that list to update the markers when they are referenced. I have these EMACS functions in a seperate library which the user must load to get the updating marks. When this library is loaded, I bind C-X C-X and C-@. This has the problem that the user must keep track of whether the point he wants is marked with a TECO mark or an updating mark and he must know which kind of mark he needs for his next operation. A second solution would be to integrate the changes with all the most common functions in EMACS and leave the more obscure functions alone -- this would cause occasional glitches for the user, so I don't recommend it. A third solution would be to replace all calls to ^V (or to redefine ^V). This would would be needlessly inefficient and it could lead to errors if a function relies on the mark not being updated (for instance, it might adjust for the changes itself). Perhaps the best solution, and the one requiring the most work, would be to search all EMACS libraries and replace those calls to ^V which have external effects. If we did this massive integration of the updating marks, we would probably want to rewrite some of the TECO algorithms into MIDAS for efficiency -- perhaps we could allow ^V to keep its definition and add @^V to mean "^V on the updating mark stack." Does anybody have any suggestions? Should we just implement the first option for a while and see what seems best over the long run? Comments to Bradford%SIERRA@SCORE. -- Ethan -------  Date: Sun, 4 Mar 1984 16:42 EST Message-ID: From: NIS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: "Leigh L. Klotz" Cc: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-reply-to: Msg of 4 Mar 1984 14:28-EST from Leigh L. Klotz thanks for the note, I guess I like the way Zwei does it. Is there any reasonable way to approximate the Zwei behavior in Emacs (a single mark with a stack of points)? -Keith  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 4 Mar 84 14:28-EST Date: 4 March 1984 14:28-EST From: Leigh L. Klotz To: NIS @ MIT-OZ cc: emacs-hackers @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Sun 4 Mar 1984 11:02 EST from NIS%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Highlighting can't easily be done for the region in EMACS. Remember, though, that marks in EMACS are different from marks in Zwei. In EMACS, there is a stack of marks. In Zwei, there is one mark and a stack of points. There is always a current region in EMACS, but not always one in Zwei. So if someone did modify the redisplay routine in TECO (written in PDP-10 code) there would almost always be some reverse-video portion of the screen. You can use the TMACS library M-X Graph Buffer command to get a graph of what the buffer looks like. Do M-X Load Library$TMACS first. You can also use ^X-^X to exchange the point and the mark just before you do M-W or such operations. It will show you clearly what the region is.  Date: Sun, 4 Mar 1984 11:02 EST Message-ID: From: NIS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: emacs-hackers%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: nis%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Is there a way to get emacs to highlight or underline the region between point and mark on terminals that can support underlining or highlighting of some sort? I am constantly getting confused about where my region is because i cant see it. Ive gotten used to the underline feature in zwei. Can that be done easily in emacs? As a related question, the above would only make sense if there is a way to distinguish intentionaly made marks (C-space) from others. I often loose when i try to set the mark with C-space and then do C-M-N's to move over several expressions and then do M-W only to get just the last s-expression I moved over. Is there any way to distinguish marks made by C-space and restrict commands like C-W etc to use them?  Date: 2 March 1984 23:55-EST From: Devon S. McCullough To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC If once I run it with linesaving, and then re-start it on a terminal without linesaving, it still tries to do it. IE, :tctyp sav 256 :emacs ^Z :tctyp save 0 $G  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Feb 84 18:00-EST Received: from MIT-MC by WASHINGTON.ARPA with TCP; Sun 26 Feb 84 15:00:05-PST Date: 26 February 1984 18:01-EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: size limits in Emacs To: Furuta @ WASHINGTON cc: bug-emacs @ WASHINGTON, fhsu @ WASHINGTON In-reply-to: Msg of Sun 26 Feb 84 01:22:57-PST from Richard Furuta Use the SPLIT library to take one large file and make it into several smaller files of about 256K characters each. Then edit one or more of the smaller files. You can do M-X What Available Space to find out how much memory your EMACS has left internally. Do M-X Run Library$Split$Split File$file.name  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Feb 84 04:26-EST Date: Sun 26 Feb 84 01:26:20-PST From: Witold Paluszynski Subject: Re: size limits in Emacs To: Furuta@WASHINGTON.ARPA cc: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA, fhsu@WASHINGTON.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard Furuta " of Sun 26 Feb 84 01:23:03-PST I think at this point you can only use SPLIT library which will make it easy to split up the file into some number of smaller ones and then to reassemble them back. I used it and it works fine except that leaves those smaller files undeleted. Witold -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 26 Feb 84 04:23-EST Date: Sun 26 Feb 84 01:22:57-PST From: Richard Furuta Subject: size limits in Emacs To: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA cc: Furuta@WASHINGTON.ARPA, fhsu@WASHINGTON.ARPA I find myself trying to edit files of sizes between 390 and 650 pages (and rarely larger). Emacs can't seem to handle this. Can anything be done to make it be able to do this? --Rick -------  Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1984 17:12 EST Message-ID: From: "Leigh L. Klotz" To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-pcl%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, marty%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, gz%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I have reverted the EMACS PCL library to its previous state. If you want automatic capitalization of keywords, you must set the variable Automatic Capitalization to be non-zero. At some point we can merge other changes from the previous and current libraries.  Date: Sat 25 Feb 84 14:34-EST From: Martin David Connor Subject: Word Abbrev Mode stuck on To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ It seems that after I edit a PCL file, Word Ab mode stays on even after I switch buffers, and I have to manually turn it off. Is that what was intended? Seems like it should be for that buffer only, although I don't really like the mode because it arbitrarily uppercases all the keywords. Please let me know how to work around this if I must.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 22 Feb 84 16:44-EST Date: 22 Feb 1984 13:29 PST (Wed) Message-ID: From: Sam Hsu Subject: Pascal lbrary To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Date: Friday, 17 February 1984 18:27-PST From: Witold Paluszynski Btw, a question related to PASCAL library on 20-EMACS. It seems to be getting fooled by variable names starting with end, like endx, endy. Whenever I do an assignment to such a variable within a block the indentation gets screwed up in such a way, that it suggests picking up this endx as end. Is it a bug or is this library designed this way?  Date: 20 Feb 1984 20:35 EST (Mon) Message-ID: From: Daniel Brotsky To: bug-babyl%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: glass tty problems cc: dcb%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I'm not sure whether this is a Babyl or Emacs bug. When I log in from a glass tty, the T command of babyl seems to break lines at random positions, inserting an ! when it does so. Not only do the breaks not correspond to my (system-known) terminal width, they are not consistent from line to line. What gives? dan  Date: 18 February 1984 00:53 EST From: Pandora B. Berman Subject: test To: INFO-EMACS-RECIPIENTS @ MIT-MC this is a test for losing addresses. please ignore.  Date: Tue 14 Feb 84 21:47:53-CST From: Karl Nyberg Subject: Elle (or Emacs for 11/70) To: info-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA DOes anyone know about the availability of Elle (Elle Looks Like Emacs) for the 11/70? Or any other ersatz EMACS for the 11/70 for that matter? Thanks. -- Karl -- -------  Received: from SRI-AI.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 10 Feb 84 19:22:42-EST Date: Fri 10 Feb 84 16:22:38-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Making EMACS run faster. To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA, bug-teco@MIT-XX.ARPA This concerns people who are running TENEX EMACS on FOONLY or 2020 processors... TECO currently executes code in the ACs in order to try to make a string copy loop faster (on KA and KI processors, this was probably a good idea). On a KL processor with Cache memory, this probably makes little difference. On a Foonly computer, and presumably on a 2020, since the technology involved is similar, this is a VERY BAD idea. The relevant code has been shown to run 10 to 15 times SLOWER in the ACs of a foonly F4 than the same code run from memory. There are technical reasons for this, but the bottom line is that unless you have a KA or KI, the string copy loop should be left in memory. I have not made the actual patches. the relevant portions of code are near YANK3 and PCHF2 Enjoy BillW -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 9 Feb 84 19:34-EST Date: Thu 9 Feb 84 16:27:08-PST From: Witold Paluszynski Subject: PASCAL library To: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA Is there any good reason to change old comment format (**) to {}? This produces programs not compatible with every compiler. Witold -------  Date: Wed 8 Feb 84 12:57-EST From: Berthold K. P. Horn Subject: Death in Babyl To: BUG-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA It says Illegal intruction 717234,,16700 at 2 I had just started by saying CONN bkph.tex CR EDIT resume.tex Then I did control-X R and R (to reply to the message). Then it died...  Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1984 22:37 EST Message-ID: From: ZVONA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: "David A. Moon" Cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-zwei%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: feature suggestion: c-X G In-reply-to: Msg of 6 Feb 1984 22:31-EST from David A. Moon Oh. I was being faked out by Zwei and Emacs being different.  Received: from SCRC-QUABBIN by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 6 Feb 84 22:32-EST Received: from SCRC-EUPHRATES by SCRC-QUABBIN with CHAOS; Mon 6-Feb-84 22:35:13-EST Date: Monday, 6 February 1984, 22:31-EST From: David A. Moon Subject: feature suggestion: c-X G To: ZVONA at MIT-OZ Cc: bug-zwei at MIT-OZ, bug-emacs at MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1984 20:48 EST From: ZVONA@MIT-OZ c-X G puts point at the beginning of the text it snarfs into the buffer. I often wish it would put it at the end. When I try it, c-X G behaves consistently with c-Y. It puts point at the end of the text, while c-U c-X G puts point at the beginning. Maybe it was different in an older system, or is different in Emacs?  Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1984 20:48 EST Message-ID: From: ZVONA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-zwei%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: feature suggestion: c-X G c-X G puts point at the beginning of the text it snarfs into the buffer. I often wish it would put it at the end. Suppose that c-X X saved an extra bit of state that said which end of the region point was at when you save to the q-register. Then c-X G would put you back at that same end.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 6 Feb 84 13:12-EST Date: Mon 6 Feb 84 10:12:20-PST From: Witold Paluszynski Subject: questions: auto-save and ^C To: bug-emacs@WASHINGTON.ARPA cc: fhsu@WASHINGTON.ARPA Somehow, auto-save doesn't see that I set the variable "auto-save-max" to 63 and keeps only 2 copies of backups. This has changed after Sam created new Emacs and worked right for a while. Now it is back to normal, i.e. doesn't work. What is ^C? It doesn't run any function, it is impossible to insert it with ^Q, or to get any help on any command having ^C in it. Does it run any command at all. I know it runs some code. Thanks, Witold -------  Date: Sat 4 Feb 84 20:57:56-CST From: Karl Nyberg Subject: emacs.init help To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA I recently changed a line in my emacs.emacs file to have it be a tvi950 (since that type isn't supported by our monitor yet), and when I generated a new emacs.init file, it didn't seem to load correctly. I tried doing it under at XX, but got the same behavior. It previous was pretending that it was a tvi912 just fine, but I can't even get it to create an emacs.init file with that characteristic any more. Our emacs.exe is 62203 (which is about a year and a half old). If anyone has the time to look at it and see if I messed up something else, I'd really appreciate it. The files are ps:emacs.* here at Utexas-20. Another minor glitch, in my ^R Generate Init. I get a opn0113 (I think that was the number) when it tried to delete the emacs.comprs file. Any suggestions? Has something changed in teco that I didn't hear about? Thanks. -- Karl -- -------  Date: Thu 2 Feb 84 23:32:39-EST From: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Last laugh To: info-emacs@MIT-MC A similar EMACS can be had free from Fen Labalme at Megatest. Phone (408) 298-6850. He is eager to distribute it. -------  Date: Thu, 2 Feb 84 19:53 EST From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: EMACS name To: Mark Crispin Cc: Info-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA In-reply-to: The message of 2 Feb 84 17:16-EST from Mark Crispin Date: Thu 2 Feb 84 14:16:40-PST From: Mark Crispin There is an advertisement for Gosling's EMACS in the December 1983 issue of the "VAX/RSTS Professional", page 81.... Too bad RMS didn't trademark the name "EMACS"... I've seen unix people get very hostile (!) when you mention that EMACS didn't originate under Unix.  Date: Thu 2 Feb 84 14:16:40-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: chuckle To: Info-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA Postal-Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041 Phone: (415) 497-1407 (Stanford); (415) 968-1052 (residence) There is an advertisement for Gosling's EMACS in the December 1983 issue of the "VAX/RSTS Professional", page 81. They want $395 up for the binary, $995 up for the source. This is a version that is claimed to run on VAX and 68000. The company is UniPress Software in Highland Park, NJ. Too bad RMS didn't trademark the name "EMACS"... -------  Received: from SCRC-BIG by SCRC-TENEX with CHAOS; Tue 31-Jan-84 15:40:06-EST Date: Tue, 31 Jan 84 15:30 EST From: Mike McMahon Subject: RRECIN for tops20 To: "/"William ///"Chops///" Westfield/"" cc: "Leigh L. Klotz" , bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA, bug-teco@MIT-XX.ARPA, marty%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: The message of 30 Jan 84 22:10-EST from "William /"Chops/" Westfield" , The message of 31 Jan 84 08:58-EST from Leigh L. Klotz Message-ID: <840131153018.1.MMcM@SCRC.SCRC.Symbolics> Date: Mon 30 Jan 84 19:10:33-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield I've modified tops20 TEXTI not to echo break characters, and for the most part, things seem to work. The exception is that if DISPLAY MATCHING PAREN is non-zero, and I include a paren in my typing, the cursor moves back to the open paren, but does not return to the end of line when I type the next character (unless it is a break character). Is the TWENEX code for display matching paren different from the the ITS code in the assumptions that it make about whether the cursor needs to be moved ? No, the code is the same. Are you getting the code at RRECI2 that makes close paren a break character if FS^RPAREN is set? I'd think that's all you need. You're saying that the cursor is frozen at the left-paren, right? I would also like someone to explain the places that ITS TECO checks for whether the system was doing and ECHOIN call. Let's see, the label in question is RRECI7. TSINTA isn't relevant, that's for %PJATY, which Tops-20 doesn't have. TSINTC is for the clock interrupt. You want to do the same thing at the Tops-20 TSINTC, namely get the TEXTI to return so that the normal TYI routine will process it. TSINT8 is ^G. The corresponding code is at TSINT3. It should interrupt the TEXTI) Cleaning up may be slightly more difficult, since Tops-20 doesn't have PCLSR'ing, but instead interrupt PC's in monitor mode. If this isn't enough to go on, and someone has a system setup someplace with all this new stuff, I'd be happy to look at it as my time permits.  Date: 31 January 1984 08:58 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: RRECIN for tops20 To: BILLW @ SRI-KL cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-XX, bug-teco @ MIT-XX, marty @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Mon 30 Jan 84 19:10:33-PST from William "Chops" Westfield This sounds excellent. Perhaps Mike McMahon can be cajoled into giving some advice on the matching paren problem. Does the modified TEXTI work even if you redefine keys in EMACS, like making alphabetic keys be bound to functions? A special example of this is auto fill mode, which ITS handles specially so that the space key echoes until it gets to the fill column, at which point it becomes a break character. Please explain how we can go about modifying our monitor. I'm interested in running it here and seeing how it affects the load, but I'll have to get someone here to install the changed ECHOIN. Leigh.  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Mon 30 Jan 84 22:33:03-EST Date: Mon 30 Jan 84 19:10:33-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: RRECIN for tops20 To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA, bug-teco@MIT-XX.ARPA I've modified tops20 TEXTI not to echo break characters, and for the most part, things seem to work. The exception is that if DISPLAY MATCHING PAREN is non-zero, and I include a paren in my typing, the cursor moves back to the open paren, but does not return to the end of line when I type the next character (unless it is a break character). Is the TWENEX code for display matching paren different from the the ITS code in the assumptions that it make about whether the cursor needs to be moved ? I would also like someone to explain the places that ITS TECO checks for whether the system was doing and ECHOIN call. Thanks Bill W PS: Would someone please add me to BUG-TECO and BUG-EMACS? -------  Date: 29 January 1984 09:38 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: compare buffers bug To: JRGETSINGER @ BBNG cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 28 Jan 1984 17:59-EST from JRGETSINGER at BBNG Please demonstrate this to me.  Date: 29 January 1984 09:37 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz To: JRGETSINGER @ BBNG cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 28 Jan 1984 16:47-EST from JRGETSINGER at BBNG Try ^R Kbd Macro Query. It's on ^X-Q after you've defined or loaded a keyboard macro.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 29 Jan 84 09:12-EST Date: 29 January 1984 09:14 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: Control-E To: RMS @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ, saz @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 24 Jan 84 00:43:56-EST from RMS%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA I proposed a command similar to Meta-M (Meta-Return, etc.) that would go to the code at the end of the line, but couldn't figure out a good key to put it on. Obviously, though, ^E should stand.  Date: Saturday, 28 January 1984 17:59-EST From: JRGETSINGER @ BBNG To: bug-emacs @ mc Compare Windows malfunctions if you try to compare two sections of the same buffer, one in each window. Apparently it uses the same pointer for both windows, merrily (and sloooowly) running all the way to the end of the file, and then erroneously proclaiming a match. -------  Date: Saturday, 28 January 1984 16:47-EST From: JRGETSINGER @ BBNG To: bug-emacs @ mc How about ^X ^E being Query Repeat Macro, like ^X E mixed in with Query Replace? -------  Received: from SCRC-YUKON by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 24 Jan 84 14:38-EST Date: Tuesday, 24 January 1984, 14:27-EST From: Robert W. Kerns Subject: semi-colon parsing To: SAZ at MIT-OZ Cc: bug-zmacs at MIT-OZ, bug-emacs at MIT-OZ In-reply-to: The message of 23 Jan 84 20:29-EST from SAZ at MIT-OZ Message-ID: <840124142759.7.RWK@YUKON.SCRC.Symbolics> Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 20:29:50-EST From: SAZ@MIT-OZ Does it strike anybody as annoying that control-E takes you to the end of a commented line (ie to the end of the comment) rather than just the end of the final s-expr on the line? I know I sure do. How about a control-E that takes you to the end of the final bit of CODE on the line, then, if another control-E is done, you can access the end of the comment text? IE, if I already am at the following place: (cursorpos <== *) hsdofh ihofdh)))* ;This function just dies every time and I do a control-E, the cursor will move to the end of the word "time"... Well, it's a half-good idea, at least. I just put the following into my LISPM-INIT. I wouldn't want to change what c-E does, since it's so fundamental (and symetric with c-A). I made the analogy be with m-;, m-N, and m-P, for s-;, s-N, and s-P. You could easily change this to check your current position, and move to the end of the line if you're already at the position determined here. zwei: (defcom com-end-of-expression-line "Go to the end of a line, or the last expression before the comments." (km) (let* ((line (bp-line (point))) (comment (find-comment-start line)) (end (1+ (if comment (string-reverse-search-not-set *blanks* line comment) (1- (line-length line)))))) (move-bp (point) line end)) dis-bps) zwei: (defcom com-down-expression-line "Go to the end of the next line, before the comments." (km r) (com-down-real-line) (com-end-of-expression-line)) zwei: (defcom com-up-expression-line "Go to the end of the previous line, before the comments." (km -r) (com-up-real-line) (com-end-of-expression-line)) (zwei:set-comtab zwei:*standard-comtab* '(#\s-/; zwei:com-end-of-expression-line #\s-N zwei:com-down-expression-line #\s-P zwei:com-up-expression-line))  Received: from SCRC-YUKON by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 24 Jan 84 13:49-EST Received: from SCRC-ANNISQUAM by SCRC-YUKON with CHAOS; Tue 24-Jan-84 13:38:56-EST Date: Tuesday, 24 January 1984, 13:48-EST From: Doug Dodds Subject: semi-colon parsing To: SAZ at MIT-OZ Cc: bug-zmacs at MIT-OZ, bug-emacs at MIT-OZ In-reply-to: The message of 23 Jan 84 20:29-EST from SAZ at MIT-OZ Message-ID: <840124134856.2.DODDS@SCRC.SCRC.Symbolics> Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 20:29:50-EST From: SAZ@MIT-OZ Does it strike anybody as annoying that control-E takes you to the end of a commented line (ie to the end of the comment) rather than just the end of the final s-expr on the line? I know I sure do. Personally, I couldn't do without this functionality. My Lispm-Init loads the following nifty function, by JWalker: zwei: (defcom COM-END-OF-CODE-LINE "Goes to the end of the last /"real/" character on the line. This provides a way to get positioned on a line so you can add to or modify the code, not the comment. A numeric argument specifies how many lines to move. I don't see how people live without this. Maybe if you never comment your code you don't notice that this is missing. " () (let* ((the-line (bp-line (forward-line (point) ;find the line wanted (if *numeric-arg-p* *numeric-arg* 0)))) (index (find-comment-start the-line t))) ;index for comment (cond ((null index) ;no comment on line (move-to-bp (end-line (create-bp the-line 0)))) ;so just go to end (t (move-to-bp (backward-over *blanks* (create-bp the-line index)))))) dis-bps) My init file does a login binding of this function to s-E, which isn't quite kosher, but has mnemonic value. How about a control-E that takes you to the end of the final bit of CODE on the line, then, if another control-E is done, you can access the end of the comment text? c-E is very strongly entrenched in all modes as meaning end-of-line. I am against changing the meaning of c-E for this purpose. Better to let c-E still always mean end-of-LINE, and some other key binding like s-E mean end-of-CODE.  Date: 24 January 1984 05:11 EST From: Gail Zacharias Subject: Control-E To: SAZ @ MIT-OZ cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 24 Jan 84 00:43:56-EST from RMS%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA !^R End Of Commented Line:! !^R Move past the last non-blank before comment! qComment Start[0 !* 0: what starts a comment! fq0"l :l' !* if no comments, just end of line! "# 1:fb0"e !* if no comment after point! 0l 1:fb0"e:l' !* then if no comment at all, end of line! "#fkc'' !* else move back past comment! "#fkc'' !* else move back past the first comment! .,(0L).@F L !* And back up over blanks! 0  Date: Tue 24 Jan 84 00:43:56-EST From: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Control-E To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, saz%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I think Control-E should be left alone. If you would like a command to do the peculiar thing you have suggested,' you are free to write it yourself for your own use. -------  Date: Mon 23 Jan 84 20:29:50-EST From: SAZ%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: semi-colon parsing To: bug-zmacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Does it strike anybody as annoying that control-E takes you to the end of a commented line (ie to the end of the comment) rather than just the end of the final s-expr on the line? I know I sure do. How about a control-E that takes you to the end of the final bit of CODE on the line, then, if another control-E is done, you can access the end of the comment text? IE, if I already am at the following place: (cursorpos <== *) hsdofh ihofdh)))* ;This function just dies every time and I do a control-E, the cursor will move to the end of the word "time"... How about it, guys? ---Dave-------  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Sun 22 Jan 84 05:15:42-EST Date: 21 Jan 1984 14:25-PST Sender: BILLW@SRI-KL Subject: Re: making tops20 EMACS more efficient. From: BILLW@SRI-KL To: CSTACY@MIT-MC Cc: BILLW@SRI-KL, bug-emacs@MIT-XX Cc: editor-people@SU-SCORE Message-ID: <[SRI-KL]21-Jan-84 14:25:31.BILLW> In-Reply-To: The message of 20 January 1984 01:08 EST from Christopher C. Stacy Teriffic. That should make things real easy. Now then, given that it is contrary to the tops20 philosophy to understand things like teco buffer blocks, is there a convenient routine someplace in TECO that will do the proper things with argument 5 (the teco buffer block), given the first arguments (byte pointer, character count, and things like that). The patch to fix texti, and the patch to prevent echoing of break characters seems to work. A patch to make meta characters act like break characters may follow later.... BillW  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 20 Jan 84 21:21-EST Received: from WASHINGTON.ARPA by SRI-NIC with TCP; Fri 20 Jan 84 18:19:20-PST Date: Fri 20 Jan 84 18:18:16-PST From: Sam Subject: Re: ANSI terminal type To: Ian@SRI-NIC.ARPA cc: bug-emacs@SRI-NIC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Ian Macky " of Fri 20 Jan 84 17:52:44-PST There is an ANSI terminal type in the new TECO on TINMAN: on OZ. It just hasn't been merged and/or distributed yet. It should be merged into TECTRM.MID which will be the "termcap" sort of thing that will be changing the most and easier to FTP (i.e. not so long). Meanwhile, how about something like the BG escape sequences? They're all ANSI, but use NUL padding and has scrolling regions and I/D chars. Let TECO think you're on a degenerate bbn bitgraph terminal... Or, how about the VT132 sequences. I think that has I/D char, yes? -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 20 Jan 84 20:50-EST Date: Fri 20 Jan 84 15:44:18-PST From: Ian Macky Subject: ANSI terminal type To: bug-emacs@SRI-NIC There should be an ANSI terminal type in EMACS. I have my Z29 set to ANSI mode, but there is no ANSI terminal type anywhere, so the best I can do is use VT100, which is a SUBSET! If I say I'm a VT100 then I don't get to use insert/delete character and other goodies, which is especially bad at home at 1200 baud. Any hope of getting a new type? Ian -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 20 Jan 84 01:08:02-EST Date: 20 January 1984 01:08 EST From: Christopher C. Stacy Subject: making tops20 EMACS more efficient. To: BILLW @ SRI-KL cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-XX, editor-people @ SU-SCORE In-reply-to: Msg of Thu 19 Jan 84 13:45:39-PST from William "Chops" Westfield I don't know what people have been proposing for TOPS-20, but here is the documentation for the system call that ITS provides to make TECO more efficient: ECHOIN: echo characters and store them in a buffer, until a break character arg 1 TTY channel number arg 2 Byte pointer to buffer arg 3 Number of characters left in buffer arg 4 Address of break table arg 5 Address of TECO buffer block (or zero) The second and third arguments are counted out as characters are stored. When the call returns due to a break character, the count will still be greater than zero. ECHOIN tells the system to echo characters and insert them in the buffer specified by the second and third arguments without requiring the user program to be executed. This is more efficient and gets visibly faster response time. Echoing stops when either the count is exhausted or a break character is input. When this happens, the ECHOIN returns. If it returns because of a break character, then the break character is available for normal input. Non-break characters following the break character are not handled. Break characters are specified by the break table, a four-word block pointed to by the fourth argument. Each of the four words says, for 32 characters, whether they break or not. In the first word, the sign bit is for SAIL code 0, and bit 1.5 is for SAIL code 37. The sign bit of the second word is for Space, and bit 1.5 is for ?. And so on. Characters with Control or Meta set (including ASCII control characters on non-Meta keyboards) are always break characters. To prevent timing errors, ECHOIN will return immediately if there are characters in the input buffer already. For use by TECO, ECHOIN can update the block of counters which TECO uses to remember the extent of the buffer. The fifth argument should point to this block, the "Buffer block", which is seven words long. When a character is inserted, the first two words of the buffer block are not changed, the next four are incremented, and th next one is decremented. Passing the buffer block to ECHOIN allows ECHOIN to insert characters directly into TECO's buffer as an indivisible operation. Note that the insertion of the characters themselves is still controlled by the byte pointer and count arguments. However, in the future this may change; when ECHOIN is made able to handle operations besides insertion, it will use the buffer block for updating the buffer (which may involve deletion) but will still insert all characters it processes down the byte pointer. This way, TECO will have both an updated buffer and a list of the commands which the user typed.  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Thu 19 Jan 84 16:45:12-EST Date: Thu 19 Jan 84 13:45:39-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: making tops20 EMACS more efficient. To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA, editor-people@SU-SCORE.ARPA From time to time, people bemoan that fact that the tops20 texti jsys isnt just a little different, so that emacs could be more efficient. Well, based on those conversations, Ive decided to try and do something about it, and have already come up with several patches that may help (they havent been tested yet). However, I am not familliar with the internal workings of ITS teco beyond terminal support, but im not sure that just having a better texti will help much without major modifications to teco. IE: Presumably you want to use texti whenever there is nothing but whitespace to the right of the current cursor location. Fine. How does one TELL when such a condition is true? How does one find out which characters should be in the break mask? (presumably anything that isn't tied to self-insert, but that's an EMACS concept, and how can you notice that from within TECO?) And so on. SO: Is there anyone out there who knows more about teco than I do, who has either thought about this, or is willing to do so? BillW -------  Date: 18 Jan 1984 03:02 EST (Wed) Message-ID: From: Martin David Connor To: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: MARTY-CC%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, "Leonard N. Zubkoff" Subject: Fix for 2 echolines bug in TECO on Tops-20 with VTS In VTS systems on Tops-20 the following bug happens when there are 2 echolines and the terminal is in WRAP mode. If you type a carriage return to a prompt, sometimes the response will WRAP to the top of the screen and kill the top line. Since EMACS doesn't expect this (as it should not), I sought a bug fix for it. The following fix is from from Leonard N. Zubkoff at CMU and has been working fine in the version of TECO he maintains. Here is the place where the fix needs to be applied: ; DO INITIAL SETUP SETTTM: SAVE C MOVSI A,.TICCG ; ^G ON CHANNEL 0 SKIPG NOQUIT ; IF QUITTING IS ALWAYS DISABLED DO NOT ARM ATI ATI ; ^G, SO THAT IT WILL ARRIVE AS A COMMAND AT ; THE CORRECT TIME (THIS IS FOR RMODE). CALL DOSTIW ; SETUP TERMINAL INT MASK MOVEI A,.CTTRM RTMOD% ;[NEW] Read VTS Terminal Mode Word (Jsys 636) ERJMP .+4 ;[NEW] No VTS. TLO B,(TM%SCR) ;[NEW] Turn off Wrap Mode (200000,,0) STMOD% ;[NEW] Set VTS Terminal Mode Word (Jsys 637) ERJMP .+1 ;[NEW] No VTS. RFMOD ; GET TTY MODE WORD SKIPE CH,RGETTY ; PRINTING? TRZA 2,TT%DAM ; NO, BINARY MODE THEN TRO 2,1_6\TT%ECO ; YES, MAKE SURE DATA MODE NORMAL . . . . Installing this fix will greatly help people who would like to use 2 echoline mode all the time. Could someone please install it in the OZ version of TECO, or explain to me the procedure for doing it?  Date: Thu 12 Jan 84 22:14:24-EST From: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: [WNNJYDAJ@CORNELLA: emacs bugs] To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Note that it seems to be impossible to mail to this person's address. --------------- Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 12 Jan 84 17:44-EST Received: by UCB-VAX.ARPA (4.22/4.19) id AA05266; Thu, 12 Jan 84 14:42:50 pst Message-Id: <8401122234.AA06362@ucbpopuli.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> Received: by ucbpopuli.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (4.13/4.9.5) id AA06362; Thu, 12 Jan 84 14:34:41 pst Date: 12 January 84 17:33-EST From: WNNJYDAJ@CORNELLA To: RMS@MIT-MC Subject: emacs bugs Wolfgang N. Naegeli 308 Fernow Hall Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853-0188 (607) 539-7084 Dear Dr. Stallman: I wrote to you on 22 March 1982 about some problems we have with EMACS. I also phoned and left a note for you with one of your colleagues. I realize that you certainly have many more important things to do than responding to questions. I tried very hard to find solutions and found a few, but menawhile additional problems have arisen. I would very much appreciate if you could just help me with the journaling problem. All the rest is not really aggravating. Also, would you please send me a copy of AI memo 519a, "EMACS, the Extensible, Customizable, Self-Documenting Display Editor." Thank you very much! Yours sincerely, Wolfgang N. Naegeli BUGS (?) IN EMACS Journaling does not work as described in the manual, according to which the journal file should be made fully up to date on the disk after every 50 characters. The journal file is opened when I initiate my EMACS (as requested in my init file), but nothing is written to it until and unless I issue the M-X End Journal File command. But that is not what I want. Occasionally I have had some characteristics of the EMACS environment listed that were set at startup, and maybe even the first few commands and characters of input, but usually there is nothing in the file at all when I check at the next logon, and I have not been able to determine under what circumstances that minimal recording occurs. Despite the fact that I have set the file retention code for the journal file to 3 in TWENEX, only the latest one is saved. Mode 2 Timeout in MODE2 library does not work. If this command is executed, I get an error message at the first time of update: QNB Q-Register not buffer - attempt to select a string or number ? after that there is no further attempt at updating at argument interval. Display Mode Line Inverse (variable), if set to 1 causes only the standard, but not the second mode line to be inverted. It probably as just been forgotten by the other of MODE2 library to check for the value of this variable. Abstract Redefinitions and ... Wall Chart abort at certain command characters that are supposedly undeterminable, such as ( which I have redefined to execute the keybord macro function from the VT100 library, which I have copied to my own library. Make Page Permutation Table does not check for the value of variable Page Delimiter. Thus it is useless if anything other than ^L is used as a page separator. Push to Exec, if done from a secondary EMACS causes the system to go into half-duplex. See example described under A) below. Calling EMACS with the edit (ed) command leaves the main buffer empty and gives a second buffer if a file is specified as an argument of ed. If used without argument, main buffer is entered. C-X C-V and calling EMACS with ed first displays the end of the buffer, then clears display and immediately reads in the beginning. Particularly on slow terminals this is anoying. Is there a way to supress this display of the end? Minibuffer Size (variable), if set to -3 with library SLOWLY is ignored. Minibuffers continue to display at the top instead of bottom. M-O (Set Screen Size), if invoked for the first time without argument, gives just 1 line instead of defaulting to 3 as the manual says. Even when used with more lines, at the next invocation it reverts to 1 instead of giving the same number of lines as when last invoked and as it should accroding to the manual. Also, with just a 1 line screen display C-V does no longer work, it does not scroll, though M-V still does. ISPELL sends out control characters that prompt the Concept-108 to reply with its answerback message, which in turn confuses ISPELL. A staccato of prompts and answers follows. The job has to be started all over again after manually setting the answerback memory to null. A more detailed description follows under example B) below. Neither the EMACS manual nor the ISPELL info file tells how to use multiple directories from within EMACS. When using the command M-X Command to Spell, I get the error message: ?First nonspace character is not a digit and am left at the ISPELL prompt. After using quit to return to EMACS the display is not restored but has to be redisplayed manually to get back to the right cursor position. Exiting (with M-X Save All Files set in the Exit Hook) or visiting a new file will prompt for saving the buffer, but if one is not certain and attempts to check first by trying to abort the command with C-G one is left in an indeterminate state with neither EMACS nor TECO commands working and the cursor just switching between the display and the Echo Area ater Escapes. Save Word Abbrevs variable, if set to -1, does not cause incremental abbrevs to be written on exiting. The init file needs to specify: Write Incremental Word Abbrev File for this to occur. DESIRES Calling EMACS from MM causes modeline to be updated four times in a row, or more precisely: initial display plus 3 updates. Perhaps the first three updates could be suppressed to save time, especially on slow terminals. System messages are important to know, but would be much less annoying if they were displayed in the echo area. It would also be nice to have the most recent message stored in a Q-register in case it is displayed at a moment when a clearing of the screen is in progress and it is lost before one can read it all. (I realize that such an enhancement would have to be implemented for the most part in the system software, which would have to check which terminals are in an EMACS session, but I trust that the ingenious minds behind EMACS are the most likely to come up with such an innovative feature.) System commands: It would be nice to have an extended command that would take any system command as an argument (hopefully with completion) and display responses (if any) in the echo area. This would avoid having to push to exec and pop back for just one simple command, and would save a lot of time, particularly on slow terminals by avoiding the need to redisplay the screen when popping back. It would be convenient to have an ISPELL setup hook, to automatically load certain dictionaries, maybe even depending on the fileextension and a variable that is set when any of the loaded dictionaries is augmented during a correcting run, so that one could check that variable and issue the necessary commands to dump those augmented dictionaries with the EMACS Exit Hook. Do you know of a library for the Concept 108 that makes use of its 8 screen memory? That might save a lot of time if one is on a slow modem and particularly when scrolling forth and back a lot and when using two widows. Examples: A) I pushed from EMACS to EXEC, then after some file manipulations I invoked MM and when I had to edit a message I used ^E (which according to my MM.INIT is EMACS [my customized, dumped WNNMACS to be precise]). When I wanted to look at a help file, I pushed again to EXEC. After getting the @ prompt I first thought I got hung up somewhere because there did not seem to be a response, until I realized, that my commands were actually received, but not echoed. I only got the system output displayed on my terminal. It was really just like the system had switched to half duplex while my terminal was still in full duplex. So I could not see what I was entering. As soon as I poped back, everything seemed to be back to normal. This is certainly not a sequence that I would use very often, but I am curioous what happened. In summary what I did was EXEC ==> WNNMACS ==push==> EXEC ==> MM ==^E==> WNNMACS ==push==> EXEC ==pop==> MM ==exit==> EXEC ==pop==> WNNMACS ==exit==> EXEC B) Before displaying a word that it does not know, ISPELL sends RUBOUT C-R space space. When it gives options, it sends first RUBOUT C-Q C-D C-A. That is before option 0. It does not send control characters, except CRLF, before giving additional options, if any, but after those (before telling the line number where the objectionable word was found) it does RUBOUT C-Q C-Q C-A. If there are no suggestions, it sends RUBOUT C-Q C-D C-A RUBOUT C-Q C-Q C-A anyways. Finally, before prompting with "==>" it sends RUBOUT C-Q C-W C-A RUBOUT C-E. -------  Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Sun 8 Jan 84 16:06:43-EST Date: 8 Jan 1984 13:04 PST (Sun) Message-ID: From: David Eppstein To: "Leigh L. Klotz" Cc: BILLW@SRI-KL, bug-emacs@MIT-XX Subject: find file vs visit file. In-reply-to: Msg of 8 Jan 1984 11:32-PST from Leigh L. Klotz Date: Sunday, 8 January 1984 11:32-PST From: Leigh L. Klotz This sounds like it might be the right thing to do on all occasions. Does anybody know why the exec EDIT command uses Visit File instead of Find File? It's even worse than that. If you give the EDIT command a filename it starts a whole new EMACS. The way to make EMACS use Find File instead of Visit File on startup is to set Tags Find File nonzero, but you will also either have to remember to type EDIT without a filename if you have already started an EMACS and then use c-X c-F, or you will have to use a smarter PCL command (which is what I do).  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Sun 8 Jan 84 14:33:13-EST Date: 8 January 1984 14:32 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: find file vs visit file. To: BILLW @ SRI-KL cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-XX In-reply-to: Msg of Sat 7 Jan 84 03:21:12-PST from William "Chops" Westfield This sounds like it might be the right thing to do on all occasions. Does anybody know why the exec EDIT command uses Visit File instead of Find File?  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Sat 7 Jan 84 06:19:41-EST Date: Sat 7 Jan 84 03:21:12-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: find file vs visit file. To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA Is there a way to get emacs to use FIND FILE instead of VISIT FILE when invoked by the exec EDIT command? Since the editor fork is normally kept around, this would be an advantage I think, since it would prevent inadvertant loss of (possibly) multiple buffers containing all sorts of useful info... Thanks Bill W -------  Date: Mon 19 Dec 83 00:31:26-EST From: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: A funny Teco/EMACS problem To: RMS.G.DAVID%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from ""David A. Brown" " of Sun 18 Dec 83 19:44:00-EST I think the problem must be because ^R Exit to EXEC is in a library loaded more recently than ^R Exit. In the long run, the fix is to change the name ^R Exit so that it no longer matches an initial segment of any other command name. Perhaps it should be ^R Exit EMACS. In the short run, EMACS can be patched by getting the value of ^R Exit out of some character which it lives in (such as Control-Meta-Z) and storing it into a variable with M.VMM ^R Exit$. Then M.M^R Exit$ will work properly. In the mean time, you can win by getting the value out of C-M-Z wuth Q...^RZ. -------  Date: Tue 13 Dec 83 11:11-EST Message-ID: Sender: David Chapman Mail-From: ZVONA created at 13-Dec-83 11:11:32 From: David Chapman Subject: @c, si e To: BUG-system%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA ReSent-From: GZ@MIT-OZ ReSent-To: bug-emacs ReSent-Date: Tue 13 Dec 1983 16:10-EST If you @c, si e an emacs, it gets a jsys error when it wants to type out. It does work to procede it, but it a trifle frightening.  Date: 10 Dec 1983 11:42 MST (Sat) Message-ID: From: "Frank J. Wancho" To: "Leigh L. Klotz" Cc: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC, WANCHO@SIMTEL20 Subject: HELP! In-reply-to: Msg of 9 Dec 1983 23:05-MST from Leigh L. Klotz Leigh, I stumbled across CONFIG.MID (I had forgotten it was there), and found the HSTNAM definition. I uncommented it and rebuilt EMACS. All seems well again. Thanks, Frank  Date: 10 December 1983 01:05 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: HELP! To: WANCHO @ SIMTEL20 cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Fri 9 Dec 83 21:20:43-MST from Frank Wancho FS MACHINE uses the GTHOST jsys, I believe. Or whatever it's called. Many EMACS configuration files specify something like DEFINE HSTNAM ASCIZ /MIT-SMELL/ TERMIN or whatever the syntax is. If the intended site is on the arpanet, and the GTHOST Jsys hasn't changed in 5.3, then it's probably the case that this macro is defined to be null in the batch file which assembles your TECO. Try looking at the code for FS MACHINE and see what it's assembled to do. Other things may know your host name because of the file SYSTEM:HOSTNAME.TXT, which maybe EMACS should be allowed to use conditionalized on some flag or something. Leigh.  Date: Fri 9 Dec 83 21:20:43-MST From: Frank Wancho Subject: HELP! To: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA I just put up the 5.3 MONITR, and now fsmachine returns blank. Rebuilt EMACS -- no errors. Still blank. Meanwhile everything else knows our site name... Ideas, please. --Frank -------  Date: 9 December 1983 20:31 EST From: Pandora B. Berman Subject: EMACS question #2 To: DBENNETT @ SU-SCORE cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Date: Tue 6 Dec 83 21:33:12-PST From: Don Bennett Subject: EMACS QUESTIONS To: MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: DBENNETT@SU-SCORE.ARPA ReSent-date: Wed 7 Dec 83 16:25:09-PST ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA Two questions about emacs... (2) - What has been done to make EMACS work on a VAX/UNIX system ? The manual would lead me to believe that, as distributed from MIT, EMACS runs only on DEC-10's and 20's... what the MIT AI Lab distributes only runs on tenex and twenex. a few leads for unix EMACS: CCA distributes a UNIX emacs written in C. presumably they make you pay for it. they just moved, so i'm not completely sure of their address, but it's Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02139 the contact i have listed is Steve Zimmerman. James Gosling of CMU has a VAX EMACS that runs in unix and vms. i think it's also written in C. he charges something for it i believe. James A. Gosling Carnegie-Mellon University Computer Science Dept. Schenley Park Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412)578-3077  Date: 9 December 1983 11:48 EST From: Richard Mark Soley Subject: *: in local modes list To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC The EVARS *: hack does not work in Local Modes lists. For instance, I had the like: ... *:M(M.MCommand to Spell)load third dict ... in a proper local modes in an R file, and it was not executed. -- Richard Soley  Mail-From: DBENNETT created at 6-Dec-83 21:33:12 Date: Tue 6 Dec 83 21:33:12-PST From: Don Bennett Subject: EMACS QUESTIONS To: MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: DBENNETT@SU-SCORE.ARPA ReSent-date: Wed 7 Dec 83 16:25:09-PST ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA Two questions about emacs... (1) - How can I cause something to be printed when I first enter EMACS and when I exit EMACS? I would like to have it print an escape sequence to cause an HP terminal to turn on the A strap, so escape codes will be sent when cursor movement keys are used. (2) - What has been done to make EMACS work on a VAX/UNIX system ? The manual would lead me to believe that, as distributed from MIT, EMACS runs only on DEC-10's and 20's... Thanks, Don Bennett DBENNETT@SCORE -------  Date: 5 December 1983 04:53 EST From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: Can't get there from here. To: TOM @ MIT-OZ cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Mon 5 Dec 83 02:57-EST from Tom Trobaugh Date: Mon 5 Dec 83 02:57-EST From: Tom Trobaugh I don't know where the problem lies, exactly, possibly my login file or my emacs init file, but at present, when I try ro run EMACS, (on OZ), I get: ?Illegal instruction 0 at 34 ?Undefined operation code Any help will be appreciated. I'd especialy appreciate an explanation, so's I can fix it myself next time. There was a dead emacs in your directory called EMACS.EXE. So when you typed "emacs" you got an unrunnable image. I deleted it. EMACS should work now. Did you used to have an init file? david  Date: Mon 5 Dec 83 02:57-EST From: Tom Trobaugh Subject: Can't get there from here. To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I don't know where the problem lies, exactly, possibly my login file or my emacs init file, but at present, when I try ro run EMACS, (on OZ), I get: ?Illegal instruction 0 at 34 ?Undefined operation code Any help will be appreciated. I'd especialy appreciate an explanation, so's I can fix it myself next time. Thanks --Tom Trobaugh  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 29 Nov 83 18:01-EST Date: Tue 29 Nov 83 15:00:34-PST From: Ian Macky Subject: VT100? To: bug-emacs@SRI-NIC How come when I set my terminal type to VT100 and run EMACS, it prompts me for aterminal type. If I give it VT100 then, it works fine. Why can't it figure it out? -------  Date: 29 November 1983 17:22 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Sender: PGS @ MIT-MC To: DEVON @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC It's not that you don't know TECO; it's that you don't know EMACS argument conventions. Your point is that there is no standard way to force a function bound to a key to take a string argument it would normally check for if invoked via M-X. X-D (M-X Dired), for instance, will ask for a string arg if given a ^U arg. M-X Read Mail has no such feature. That's a general problem, and not a problem in documentation. The standard way to find out about arguments in EMACS is to look at the manual in the info hierarchy, or to look at the printed manual. There is no M-X Documentation Apropos, although with suitable keywords placed in the manual, one could write it. Any takers? Leigh.  Date: 28 November 1983 23:22 EST From: Devon S. McCullough To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of Mon 28 Nov 83 09:59:21-EST from RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I did m-? c-X R and it told me that c-X R can get a string argument, but it was not clear how to do this so I tried APROPOS which told me nothing. The output from m-? disguised the fact that c-X R is simply m-X Read Mail, I guess m-X Read mail string argument is what I wanted. Date: Mon 28 Nov 83 09:59:21-EST From: RMS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: DEVON@MIT-MC In-Reply-To: Message from "Devon S. McCullough " of Mon 28 Nov 83 08:16:00-EST Apropos tells you about commands whose names contain a specified string. A more useful thing for APROPOS to do would be to try to be HELPFUL. If you want to see how to give an argument, look in the INFO file. As usual, the needs of people modeming at 120 c/s are simply ignored, maybe rightly so. I'm not going to look at windy manuals with only iffy chances of actually addressing the question at hand, at 120 c/s. Instead of penalizing me for not knowing (or wanting to know) TECO, we could make the system a bit more integrated, a bit friendlier.  Date: 28 November 1983 15:52 EST From: David Vinayak Wallace To: DEVON @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 28 Nov 1983 08:16 EST from Devon S. McCullough Date: 28 November 1983 08:16 EST From: Devon S. McCullough To: BUG-EMACS I wanted to run Babyl on a particular file (not my default babyl file) and I happened to be in EMACS so I thought ^X R runs Babyl (for me) so maybe it can take an argument somehow... m-? ^X R reveals that sure enough, it takes a string argument. Apropos: String Arg however, reveals no information at all. But APROPOS really should say something about such a fundamental thing as how to give a command an argument! How about M-X babylfilename This form is documented in the manual. You may have to do M-X Load Librarybabyl first. david  Date: 28 November 1983 08:16 EST From: Devon S. McCullough To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC I wanted to run Babyl on a particular file (not my default babyl file) and I happened to be in EMACS so I thought ^X R runs Babyl (for me) so maybe it can take an argument somehow... m-? ^X R reveals that sure enough, it takes a string argument. Apropos: String Arg however, reveals no information at all. Well, I have to go barf now, Doris or Sean are smoking up a storm in the office, echhh. But APROPOS really should say something about such a fundamental thing as how to give a command an argument!  Date: 21 November 1983 02:44 EST From: Kent M Pitman To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC ALAN's indent bug is a long-standing bug in the Emacs support for LispM-style indenting that I wrote ages ago. I guess it's about time it got fixed. I worked out the fix and have set up an XINDEN library for MC only so I can try it out for a while and see if it works ok. If no problems are detected, I'll install the fix in the Emacs sources on OZ so it'll get picked up for the next release.  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-OZ via Chaosnet; 21 Nov 83 00:41-EST Date: 21 November 1983 00:48 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: emacs dialup query To: AGRE @ MIT-OZ cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ, help-me @ MIT-OZ, rwk @ MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of Sun 20 Nov 1983 14:45 EST from AGRE%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC.ARPA Done. Look in MC:KLOTZ;NEWWIN >. It's not merged with the ^L function in slowly which is undoubtedly different, but you can try it out in your init file for a while. Leigh.  Date: 20 November 1983 22:07 EST From: Alan Bawden Subject: 0m.lLisp FOO Indent To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC cc: KMP @ MIT-MC Giving Lisp FOO Indent a value of 0 does not do what I expect. I hoped it would make a FOO-form grind like: (FOO (BAR) (BAZ)) But instead I get: (FOO (BAR) (BAZ))  Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1983 14:45 EST Message-ID: From: AGRE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, help-me%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, rwk%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: emacs dialup query Often on a slow terminal it would be nice to have just a few lines around the point redisplayed, like when line noise or notifications have messed up the text. Now, C-U C-L will redisplay the one line the point is on; what I'd like would be to have C-U C-L (or say C-U C-U C-L or something similarly quick to type) redisplay n lines above and below the point, where n is taken from some init-settable variable. Does a feature like this exist? Is there someone who wouldn't mind hacking the TECO? Perhaps the Slowly library is the place to put such a thing. As near as I can tell from the documentation it doesn't. - phIl  Date: 16 November 1983 12:39 EST From: Earl A. Killian Subject: If anybody ever has the energy to look at the redisplay routine To: KLOTZ @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-TECO @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 16 Nov 1983 00:05 EST from Leigh L. Klotz I believe this is a "feature". It is considered too expensive to update the hash code of a line for operations such as self-insert, and so it just sets the hash code to -1. The next redisplay that specifies bounds that include that line will retype it, because the hash code is wrong. The reason that it doesn't retyped more often is that most things are so good about returning accurate buffer bounds to limit redisplay.  Date: 16 November 1983 00:05 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: If anybody ever has the energy to look at the redisplay routine To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-TECO @ MIT-MC I suspect this bug has to do with the TYO HASH, but it may be unfixable and just part of the algorithm - it's been with us for ages, but it seems to me that I don't remember it happening three years ago or so. Type ^R on this message and modify a line. They type M-X ^G. The line will be needlessly redisplayed. It works for more than one line, too. ^U-^L will give the same effect, so it's presumably it's just the redisplay routine. When I look at the FS TYO HASH of the affected lines, they are -1. So does this mean that the tyo hash isn't validated until there's a honest full redisplay, or something like it? Leigh.  Date: 15 Nov 1983 11:21 EST (Tue) Message-ID: From: David Goldfarb To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA subject: Ambassadors cc: DEG%SCRC-TENEX@MIT-MC.ARPA Since most people around here use ambassadors with a 48 line display, we have 12 lines of spare display memory. It would be really neat if emacs could use this space effectively. Two possibilities which seem reasonably straight- forward would be to cache lines that are likely to be requested next (such as the lines just below the displayed screen) or to write a command that pushes to an exec in a 12 line window so redisplay would be faster when switching between the exec and emacs. (of course, this is especially useful when using emacs over a 1200 baud or slower dialup) Do any libraries already exist that do this sort of stuff? If not is there anyone out there who know teco better than I do (i.e. knows teco) who'd be intereested in writing this, or should I figure out how to do it myself.  Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Sun 13 Nov 83 21:42:57-EST Return-Path: Received: from MIT-XX.ARPA by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Sun 13 Nov 83 17:56:22-PST Date: Sun 13 Nov 83 20:52:31-EST From: Mark A. Pinone Subject: Bug in MM-20 Version 5.3(1724), Edit 980 Sender: PINONE@MIT-XX.ARPA To: Bug-MM@MIT-XX.ARPA Reply-To: PINONE@MIT-XX.ARPA ReSent-date: Sun 13 Nov 83 18:37:51-PST ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: Bug-EMACS@MIT-XX.ARPA While in MM, I entered the editor to edit a message, and several things did not work properly. I don't know if this is a problem with Emacs or MM. What I did was go into Auto Fill Mode, then then I tried to enter ^U 72 ^X F which sets the fill column at 72. I got some message saying M^R q-register or some other meaningless (to me) message. Any ideas? -------  Received: from MIT-MC by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 Nov 83 21:54:20-EST Date: 11 November 1983 22:03 EST From: Leigh L. Klotz Subject: Write file peculiars To: BILLW @ SRI-KL cc: bug-emacs @ MIT-XX In-reply-to: Msg of Fri 11 Nov 83 18:16:28-PST from William "Chops" Westfield You have to use @M(M.MWrite File) to do this. The "@" flag on M here means to "pretend the command was called from a key-bound macro." & Read Line calls f which eventually decides whether to look at the rest of the command line (as in M-X and inside programs) or to prompt and read. I'm not sure exactly why calling ^R Instant Extended Command didn't work, since presumably it sets this flag in the macroing of the function you specify. Leigh.  Received: from SRI-KL.ARPA by MIT-XX.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 Nov 83 21:10:59-EST Date: Fri 11 Nov 83 18:16:28-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Write file peculiars To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA How can I call WRITE FILE from within a teco macro, and still have it prompt for the file name, as it does when invoked by ^X^W. I thought that M(M.M ^R instant extended command$)Write file$ would do this, but apparently this just write out the current file. Thanks Bill W -------  Date: Fri 11 Nov 83 20:58:45-EST From: SRI Software Subject: FILES.EMACS To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA may have been dedamaged by my carelessnes. the trouble is tat I dont know wheter I overwrote the most recent version, or just wrote a new version (I was playing with write file, looking at its source code to try and figure out what was going on, and did: M(M.M ^R instant extend$)Write file$$ if thats any help. pleas check that the version remaing is the most recent ( I deleted the version I wrote, but did not expunge it. I am sure it has various damages from TN not transmitting Meta-chars) Sorry Bill Westfield (BillW@SRI-KL) PS: this was on MIT-XX -------  Date: 8 Nov 1983 17:01 EST (Tue) Message-ID: From: Martin David Connor To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC Subject: [DMS: Correct Spelling in EMACS] Date: Tuesday, 8 November 1983 12:59-EST From: David Siegel To: help Re: Correct Spelling in EMACS Is there any way to get the spelling corrector to use a local dictionary when used from EMACS? Also, how can I save the words inserted in a local dictionary from EMACS? When the speller terminates it doesn't give me a chance to save the dictionary I created. Thanks, -Dave  Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1983 16:00 EST Message-ID: From: Gail Zacharias To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: CENT%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-system%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: file writing bug In-reply-to: Msg of 6 Nov 1983 06:06-EST from CENT Not only that, but the file author doesn't get updated either.  Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1983 06:06 EST Message-ID: From: CENT%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, bug-system%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject:file writing bug i'm not sure who can best solve this. when i am editing a file, and write it back out to the same file name with same version number, the not-backed-up bit doesn't get turned on. i assume this means that the file, although changed, doesn't get saved in another incremental dump. this is a loss; if the file gets written to the same name&version with changed contents, the not-backed-up bit should get turned on so the file's new contents can get saved on tape.  Date: Tuesday, 18 October 1983 16:24 edt From: "Barry Margolin"@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: How beginners interpret error messages To: Henry Lieberman cc: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, Bug-Zwei%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message of 18 October 1983 16:02 edt from "Henry Lieberman" Message-ID: <831018202442.970098@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA> I don't think that this was necessarily her fault. It just goes to show the value of talking to the user in complete sentences. Of course, short error messages are better than numeric or coded ones (NIB).  Date: Tuesday, 18 October 1983, 16:02-EDT From: Henry Lieberman Subject: How beginners interpret error messages To: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, Bug-Zwei%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I thought you might be amused by this: I recently introduced a beginner to Emacs. She accidentally typed two escapes before trying to find a file with C-F C-X and got the error message "Not top level -- can't hack files". She thought that the computer was insulting her, telling her that she wasn't a top notch hacker, and therefore wasn't good enough to be hacking files.  Received: from SRI-KL by MIT-XX; Thu 13 Oct 83 20:16:51-EDT Date: Thu 13 Oct 83 16:51:42-PDT From: Susan Cole Subject: EMACS INIT question To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: cole@SRI-KL.ARPA How does one define a command key such that it performs the action of "a function with a certain argument". For example, I want to set up a key to go to the top of the screen. I see that there is a function "^R Move To Screen Edge" that jumps to top or bottom of screen, depending on its argument. I can do this to assign the function to a certain key on my terminal: m.m^R Move to Screen Edge U..B !* 2 key ! But what do I do so that that key means "perform a '^R Move to Screen Edge' with argument 1" ???? Thanks - Susan Cole -------  Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1983 14:48 EDT Message-ID: <[MIT-OZ].GZ. 8-Oct-83 14:48:13> From: Gail Zacharias To: Bug-Emacs@MIT-OZ Cc: bug-teco@MIT-OZ, help-me@MIT-OZ, AGRE@MIT-OZ Subject: 20x command files Date: Saturday, 8 October 1983 14:01-EDT From: AGRE To: help-me What is the right mode to indicate in 20X command files, such as logicals.cmd? Right now I say ! -*- CMD -*- ! and get this error message File Not Found CMD..0 There is a bug in the mode autoloading code, in particular Load Library ends up getting called with the string " CMD ". This apparently invokes a Teco bug whereby (with fsfnamsyntax=1), ET CMD  (spaces included) clobbers the second filename to null.  Received: from SRI-KL by MIT-XX; Mon 3 Oct 83 18:46:04-EDT Date: Mon 3 Oct 83 14:57:26-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: TWENEX EMACS/TECO bug To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA there is a bug in TECO.MID which affects emacs. When you exit emacs (for example with ^x^z), the terminal dependent routine to reset the terminal is executed. However, if you continue emacs,, the routine to initialize the terminal is NOT called. this only effects terminals that require initialization, which are in the minority, and thus this bug has gone largely unnoticed. The solution is to place a PUSHJ P,DPYINI immediately following the HALTF just before PAGON: I have also added terminal support for the CONCEPT AVT terminal, and will be sending you that as soon as I confirm with AVT that it does everything it needs to do. Bill W PS: You were right about there being INI and RST routines in the terminal dependent routines. I just expected them to be in a different place in the table. INI at the beginning, for example. -------  Received: from SRI-KL by MIT-XX; Mon 3 Oct 83 18:45:54-EDT Date: Mon 3 Oct 83 14:53:19-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: BUG in TECO/EMACS To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA there is a bug in TECO.MID which affects emacs. When you exit emacs (for example with ^x^z), the terminal dependent routine to reset the terminal is executed. However, if you continue emacs,, the routine to initialize the terminal is NOT called. this only effects terminals that require initialization, which are in the minority, and thus this bug has gone largely unnoticed. The solution is to place a PUSHJ P,DPYINI immediately following the HALTF just before -------  Date: Mon 3 Oct 83 01:30-EDT From: Gail Zacharias Subject: ?Illegal memory READ at 54364 To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ That's what you get if you try to read a file with holes. And a dead emacs.  Date: 27 Sep 1983 15:46 PDT (Tue) From: David Eppstein To: Goran Fagerstrom Cc: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: Variable changes in BEMACS Date: Tuesday, 27 September 1983 15:39-PDT From: Goran Fagerstrom I am running bemacs. When I start another editing session after having changed variables in the 1st one, they have not taken effect. (both changes made by edit options and set variable. (for non-Stanford people: BEMACS is merely EMACS with NOVICE loaded). No, such changes only apply to one run of the program; if you want changes to be permanent you should look into having an EMACS.VARS file. You can find out about these in INFO node (CONV); to use INFO just type C-X I to EMACS (it will tell you what to do from there). Also, what does the command set program bemacs keep start mean, and what happens if you leave start and/or keep out? It tells the EXEC to keep around your BEMACS program even when you run some other program. That way you don't have to take all the time of starting up a new one, reading in your files again, etc. Actually, the recommended command is SET PROGRAM BEMACS KEEP CONTINUE rather than KEEP START, since it is easier on BEMACS not to restart it all the time. If you use BEMACS with the EDIT command none if this has any effect - BEMACS will be automatically kept separately of any KEEP settings. This command is only useful if you run it by typing BEMACS to the EXEC. Any way of getting emacs to remember last file edited when starting new session? (The standard editor issues the msg No filespec kept, even when starting emacs) There is no way of keeping files over logging out and logging back in again. Keeping BEMACS as described above will do so for one login however.  Date: Tue 27 Sep 83 15:39:17-PDT From: Goran Fagerstrom Subject: Variable changes in BEMACS To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA I am running bemacs. When I start another editing session after having changed variables in the 1st one, they have not taken effect. (both changes made by edit options and set variable. Also, what does the command set program bemacs keep start mean, and what happens if you leave start and/or keep out? Any way of getting emacs to remember last file edited when starting new session? (The standard editor issues the msg No filespec kept, even when starting emacs) -------  Date: Tue 27 Sep 83 15:35:05-PDT From: Goran Fagerstrom To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA -------  Received: from USC-ISIB by MIT-XX; Wed 21 Sep 83 14:02:56-EDT Date: 21 Sep 1983 1059-PDT Subject: Re: {8309.0348} Suspected bug in emacs From: Michael Butler To: LAMBERT@USC-ISID.ARPA, BUG-EMACS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC, ACTION@USC-ISID.ARPA, GOWER@USC-ISID.ARPA, JUBIN@USC-ISID.ARPA, BUTLER@USC-ISIB.ARPA, JGOLDBERGER@USC-ISIB.ARPA In-Reply-To: Your message of 20 Sep 1983 13:51:44 PDT Don: Yep, that's a bug alright. As far as I can determine, it only happens for HP terminals. I suspect it's a problem it the TECO support of HPs. I'll take a look at it and let you know... -- Boom -------  LIN@MIT-ML 09/21/83 01:49:33 To: (BUG EMACS) at MIT-ML hi. i know this isn't a bug, but I can't find this in any iINFO entry. If I want to load a library and execute a command from that library when I call EMACS from a LOGIN file, what is the syntax for this? I have done this before, but I have forgotten how. In particular, I want to load the BABYL library, and then start reading my mail..  Received: from SRI-KL by MIT-XX; Tue 20 Sep 83 17:42:13-EDT Date: Tue 20 Sep 83 14:41:55-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Concept AVT To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA Does anyone have Concept AVT terminals? (Ansi style) Anybody feel like modifying EMACS/TECO to work with this terminal type (HDS person says tat mostly you just need to turn off Xon/xoff mode on entry, and turn it back on on exit. TECO doesnt seem to support initialization/de-init terminal routines though) BillW -------  Received: from USC-ISID by MIT-XX; Tue 20 Sep 83 16:50:56-EDT Date: 20 Sep 1983 13:51:44 PDT From: LAMBERT@USC-ISID Subject: Suspected bug in emacs To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, ACTION@USC-ISID cc: lambert@USC-ISID, gower@USC-ISID, jubin@USC-ISID The purpose of this message is to report a suspected bug in EMACS running at USC-ISID. The problem appears when the Display Matching Parens feature is enabled. If, while the opening parenthesis is being displayed, the user types the horizontal tab (HT) character, EMACS echoes the HT to the user's terminal BEFORE it repositions the cursor to its proper position (i.e., after the closing parenthesis). This causes erroneous displays of text, data files, etc. These errors can be corrected by refreshing the screen (with C-L), which indicates that EMACS is correctly entering the input data into its buffer; the problem appears to be with the handling of the echoed data to the user's terminal. This problem was experienced with version 163 of EMACS and version 1208 of TECO. It occurred in fundamental mode and text mode, both with and without my personal customizations via emacs.init and emacs.vars files. I created an emacs.journal file which contains a command string to demonstrate this phenomenon. It is available in my directory on ISID. Note that the JOURNAL command Replay does not exhibit the problem (Replay waits for the cursor to return to the closing parenthesis). However the journal file does contain the proper sequence of commands to demonstrate the problem; if the sequence of commands is manually entered, without waiting for the cursor to return to the closing parenthesis before entering the horizontal tab character, the effects will be apparent. Please advise when the journal file is no longer needed. Regards, Don Lambert Lambert@isid -------  Date: 16 Sep 1983 23:25 PDT (Fri) From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: File does not end with CRLF question In-reply-to: Msg of 13 Sep 1983 16:22-PDT from Mark Crispin Sorry about that - Mark should have forwarded it to me rather than the whole list. We have a modification to C-X C-S to make it check if the file ends in a CRLF and if not ask the user whether to append one. In any case I answered the person's question. The other two recent questions from Score (about terminal support for the DM and ADM5) should not be affected by any local mods. Dave must have been mistaken if he said he exited with C-X C-S. I have also noticed problems sometimes with changing terminal types by STARTing an old EMACS - sometimes if the old type was Glass it will give PDL overflow errors and in general make the EMACS completely useless. I assume some location like PADCHR or something (probably something else) isn't getting properly initialized, but I haven't had the time to look at the problem.  Received: from MIT-ML by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Fri 16 Sep 83 20:05:59-PDT Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1983 23:02 EDT Message-ID: <[MIT-OZ].KLOTZ.16-Sep-83 23:02:41> From: Leigh L. Klotz To: David Fuchs Cc: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA Subject: esoteric emacs complaint In-reply-to: Msg of 16 Sep 1983 14:31-EDT from David Fuchs Perhaps EMACS' idea of your tty speed is wrong; do 9600FSOSPEED and try it again. If it's some DM-driver related problem, it may be ages before anyone here takes a look at it. If this doesn't work, please try it on MIT-OZ. If you exit with ^X-^S, then the people at Stanford have really changed EMACS. We're constantly getting complaints that I can't understand; it turns out that they're frequently due to some local modification, which of course doesn't go with the documentation.  Date: Fri 16 Sep 83 11:31:12-PDT From: David Fuchs Subject: esoteric emacs complaint To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA Using EMACS 162 here at Score, I've run into the following problem: I start up EMACS on a Heath/Zenith terminal with the normal EDIT command. I exit with ^x^s. The fork is KEPT. I DETACH the job. I go to a DM2500 and ATTACH the job. I START the EMACS fork. It mostly works, but there is a problem with scrolling. In particular, if I do a ^V and then a ^P, it looks like EMACS is telling my DM to (slowly) insert blank lines at the top, and then it fills them in, but not very successfully (the screen gets somewhat garbaged). It seems that EMACS is only partially noticing that my terminal type changed. A ^L fixes everything until the next partial-scroll of the screen. Of course, ^V and ESC-V work perfectly, and if I start a new EMACS on the DM, it works fine. I hope this is of some interest. -david -------  Received: from SRI-SPAM by MIT-XX; Thu 15 Sep 83 18:19:37-EDT Date: 15 Sep 83 15:19:20 PDT (Thu) From: sjk@SRI-SPAM (Scott J. Kramer) Subject: Possible "Replace String" bug Message-Id: <8309152219.AA04357@SRI-SPAM.ARPA> Received: by SRI-SPAM.ARPA (3.327/3.14) id AA04357; 15 Sep 83 15:19:20 PDT (Thu) Reply-To: sjk@SRI-SPAM To: bug-emacs@mit-xx Quoted Insert, normally invoked with C-Q, doesn't work within the Replace String command. Therefore, it is impossible to quote characters such as C-M. For example: M-X Replace String^Q^M <--- I want to quote the C-M. Typing C-_ during input mode doesn't give any hints on how such chars are quoted. Is there a way to do this? I'm using Query Replace in the mini- buffer (M-%) instead. scott  Date: Wed 14 Sep 83 12:02:19-PDT From: David E.T. Foulser Subject: ADM5 terminal on EMACS To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: foulser@SU-SCORE.ARPA EMACS recognizes the ADM3 terminal, but doesn't know about the ADM5, which has two extra features. These features are and , clearly important for use of EMACS. I'd like to know what to do so that EMACS will recognize the ADM5 as an ADM3 with these two extra features. Dave Foulser FOULSER@SCORE -------  Date: Tue 13 Sep 83 16:22:19-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: File does not end with CRLF question To: Bug-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA Postal-Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041 Phone: (415) 497-1407 (Stanford); (415) 968-1052 (residence) Please don't remove it, but tell him how he can turn it off. -------  Mail-From: BRONSTEIN created at 13-Sep-83 14:34:27 Date: Tue 13 Sep 83 14:34:27-PDT From: Alexandre Bronstein Subject: Comment about EMACS.. To: mrc@SU-SCORE.ARPA ReSent-date: Tue 13 Sep 83 16:21:02-PDT ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: Bug-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA Hello Marc, This is a request about emacs, and as you can see, I am getting better now, i don't send them to BBOARD anymore, but to whom i believe is in charge of the program! If by chance, you're NOT the one maintaining emacs, then please forward this message to the right person. Thank you. Here is the request: Is there any way that the question: "The file doesn't end with , do you want me to add one (Y/N)?" could be thrown away? Either in general, if the majority of other users is annoyed by it like me, or if you want to keep it, is there any way I can customize my Emacs to NOT ask it to me? Thank you, Alex Bronstein -------  CENT@MIT-ML 09/10/83 01:36:17 Re: EMACS customization To: SULLIV at MIT-MC CC: (BUG EMACS) at MIT-ML BUG-EMACS is the right place for you to ask this sort of question. ---------- Date: 9 September 1983 00:37 EDT From: Michael E. Sullivan Subject: EMACS customization To: CENT @ MIT-OZ Hi. I have some questions regarding customization of EMACS, and I was wondering if you could help, either by telling me what to do, or getting me in touch with someone who knows TECO pretty well. Specifically, I would like to automatically load the VT100 library from an EMACS vars file, then have the VT100 Setup Hook run and output the following to the terminal: = [?1h These put the arrow keys and auxiliary keypad in the proper mode for the VT100 library. I would also like a Exit Hook (or Exit To Superior Hook) which would output this to the terminal: > i.e. $> [?1l These return the keys to their default modes. (Obviously, for a restarted EMACS, VT100 Setup Hook has to be copied into Return From Superior Hook to make sure the keys are back into the proper mode. I have an uncomfortable feeling all of this has to be done from an EMACS init file, if at all. I would appreciate help converting my vars file to an init file if that is the case. Thank you for your time and effort. Michael Sullivan (also ccc.mikey@oz)  Return-path: Date: Tuesday, 6 September 1983, 15:14-EDT From: saund@MIT-OZ Subject: a random person called To: rms@MIT-OZ Remailed-date: 6 Sep 1983 1846-EDT Remailed-from: RMS@MIT-OZ Remailed-to: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ A Mr. Dean Hurley called to ask somebody about EMACS. He has an HP120 microcomputer and EMACS on a DEC 20/60 and he doesn't know what terminal mode to use to make it work. (212) 906-2728 or 2722 and leave a message. Call collect.  Date: 6 Sep 1983 10:06 PDT (Tue) From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: Write File trouble Date: Tuesday, 6 September 1983 03:20-PDT From: RMS at MIT-OZ Does anyone remember what the trouble was that was fixed by making EMACS write a temporary file and rename it on Twenex? I know that it was changed because it lost in some circumstances, but I forgot years ago what they were. If you write to a specific version of the file, rather than the normal version -1 (next available version), then if you open the file for write the old contents are immediately blown away so if the system crashes you have lost big. EMACS makes such an effort to write version -1 though that I think writing the temporary file and renaming is more trouble than it is worth. It also makes it impossible to write to LPT: ... However, Babyl uses Write File to save its files, and it *does* write to specific versions normally. Perhaps it should write the file itself, but I think a better solution is for Write File to be smarter about how it writes files. If it is writing to version -1 or to a non-disk file (test this with the DVCHR% jsys; can TECO do this?) it should do the simple write, but if it is writing to a specific version or version 0 of a disk file it should go with the rename.  Date: 6 Sep 1983 0620-EDT From: RMS@MIT-OZ Subject: Write File trouble. To: tyson@SRI-AI, bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Does anyone remember what the trouble was that was fixed by making EMACS write a temporary file and rename it on Twenex? I know that it was changed because it lost in some circumstances, but I forgot years ago what they were. In any case, the reason why the changed Write File did not get seen is probably that a variable MM Write File exists, and it overrides any definitions from libraries. In order to change the function Write File that is used, you must set that variable to the new definition. -------  Received: from SRI-AI by MIT-XX; Tue 6 Sep 83 05:15:56-EDT Date: Tue 6 Sep 83 02:15:03-PDT From: Mabry Tyson Subject: [The Mailer Daemon : Message of 27-Jul-83 17:10:17] To: bug-emacs@MIT-XX.ARPA Date: Sat 6 Aug 83 17:25:29-PDT From: The Mailer Daemon To: TYSON@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Message of 27-Jul-83 17:10:17 Message undeliverable and dequeued after 10 days: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ.ARPA: Cannot connect to host. ------------ Date: Wed 27 Jul 83 17:10:17-PDT From: Mabry Tyson Subject: Redefining WRITE FILE To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I wanted to redefine Write File and ^R Save File so that with a ^U arg they would write directly to the output file name rather than to [TECO].OUTPUT. The reason for this is to be able to write a file into someone else's directory where the output file gets the default protection of 775200. That means if you, with group rights to the directory, write the temp file, you won't be able to rename it to the desired file. This is avoided if you write directly to the desired file. Anyway, I grabbed the definitions of the two functions, changed them appropriately, added a SETUP, and stuck it all into a library ([SRI-AI]WRITEFILE.EMACS). I compiled it and then loaded it. ^R Save File got loaded ok but Write File seemed to have been ignored. The newly bound ^X^W runs the old Write File, the new ^R Save File runs the old Write File, calling M-X Write File gets the old one. Doing a List Library on it indicates that the setup and the two functions are there, each bound to the appropriate keys. If I change the name of Write File throughout my library to XWrite File, it all works as it should. That indicates to me that the problem is not in my file. Any ideas? Is there something special about Write File? By the way, I suggest that these changes be made to the standard Twenex Emacs. It might be desirable to change the argument to do this to be 16 rather than 4 (since some people may be used to doing ^U^X^S to auto- save). Also, note that I haven't done more than confirm that my changes seem to work and don't seem to affect normal operation. I don't have much experience with them yet. ------- ------- -------  Date: 6 September 1983 02:07 EDT From: Steven T. Kirsch Subject: renumber library and narrowed buffer To: JGA @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 09/02/83 11:49:17 from JGA RENUM does support narrowed regions. Use the ^XI command to get to INFO, then goto RENUM, then FEATURES, then NARROWING. Be careful and good luck.  Date: 1 September 1983 14:19 EDT From: John G. Aspinall Subject: renumber library and narrowed buffer To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC cc: JGA @ MIT-MC It would be nice if the renumber routines could be applied in a narrowed region of the buffer. Often I want to keep them away from pieces of code in another section.  Date: Wed 24 Aug 83 05:15:39-CDT From: Frank J. Wancho Subject: Typewriter Tabbing To: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: DWatts@STL-HOST1.ARPA, Wancho@STL-HOST1.ARPA We have a user who would like to use EMACS to edit a pre-existing form and use the TAB key to tab over to column 41 without inserting anything. What code can we use to redefine TAB to do that? --Frank -------  Date: Tue 23 Aug 83 16:25:21-PDT From: COLE@SRI-KL.ARPA Subject: EMACS help needed To: bug-emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: klotz@MIT-MC.ARPA, cole@SRI-KL.ARPA I have several questions related to emacs init and vars files ONE: I would like to set up an emacs.init file such that: 1) it asks you what kind of terminal you are on 2) it runs appropriate other init or vars files for the kind of terminal you select. With the help of someone here, I have come up with the following: @ftheath, vt100, or datamedia? (h or v or d):  @:fiu0 fi:fcu0' (q0 - H) "e @ftSetting to heath. m(m.m set terminal type)heath er heath-19 init @y :m(hfx*)' (q0 - D) "e @ftSetting to dm2500. m(m.m set terminal type)dm2500 er dm2500 init @y :m(hfx*)' (q0 - V) "e @ftSetting to vt100. m(m.m set terminal type)vt100 er vt100 init @y :m(hfx*)' er emacs;emacs init ^y et@ > :m( hfx*( f]vb)) This allows the user to choose the terminal type, sets the terminal type in emacs, and runs the appropriate init file. One problem with the above (but relatively minor to me) is that if the terminal type was not set correctly coming into emacs, the message asking for the terminal type comes out garbled. Does anyone know how to get the question to appear BEFORE emacs tries to draw the screen at all? But what I really need to know is how do I get the emacs.init file to run the user's appropriate VARS file? Putting in: er vt100 vars @y :m(hfx*)' doesn't do it. TWO: Since I am more comfortable with vars files than with init files, I was hoping to be able to write a vars file for the Zenith (Heath-19) alternate keypad. However, the altkeypad sends characters like "ESC ? P". I have the init file to redefine these, but I don't know how to refer to these charcters in a vars file, so I can assign functions to them. Help? Here's part of the init file: !* Declaring keystrokes: m.mU. For Ctrl- m.mU.. For Meta- m.mU... For Ctrl-Meta- m.mU:.X() For Ctrl-X m.mU:.X() For Ctrl-X Ctrl- m.mU:.Y() For Meta-?- ! 128M(M.MMAKE PREFIX CHARACTER).YU..? m.m^R GOTO ENDU:.Y(y) !* 9 key ! eremacs;emacs init @y :m(hfx*) !* And run the normal emacs.init ! !* +---------+---------+---------+ | "7" | "8" | "9" | |BEGINNING| UP | END | | OF FILE | LINE | OF FILE | |---------+---------+---------+ | "4" | "5" | "6" | |BEGINNING| FILL | END | | OF LINE |PARAGRAPH| OF LINE | |---------+---------+---------+ | "1" | "2" | "3" | | PREVIOUS| DOWN | NEXT | | SCREEN | LINE | SCREEN | |---------+---------+---------+ | "0" | "." | "ENTER" | |BACKWARD | FORWARD | ^D | | CHAR | CHAR | | +-------------------+---------+ ! THREE: I have an "altkeypad.exe" file (from mit) that causes the Zenith to use alternate keypad mode. I know that this is accomplished by sending an ESC-= to the terminal, but I don't know how that sequence is saved into a file and sent to the computer. Would someone send me the source for altkeypad.exe? Thanks for any help. Susan Cole -------  Date: Sat, 20 Aug 1983 17:42 EDT Message-ID: <[MIT-OZ].TK.FONER.20-Aug-83 17:42:54> From: Leonard N. Foner To: bug-EMACS@MIT-OZ Subject: Still buggy after all these years... cc: Tk.Foner@MIT-OZ Reply-to: Foner at MIT-MC I'm getting very tired of losing work to the same EMACS bugs all the time. I've sent in at least five bug reports, all documenting essentially the same collection of bugs, and have never ever gotten back even an acknowledgement that anyone has seen them, much less tried to find out what causes them. Would someone PLEASE express an interest in FIXING some bugs? These bugs cause my EMACS to get illegal memory reads and writes, not to mention illegal and undefined opcodes. No one has ever asked to see a crashdump, and I'm certainly not going to leave one around to hog 350 blocks in the vain hope that one of these years someone will decide to look at it. If anyone \is/ interested in fixing these rather serious bugs in EMACS, please tell me. I'll send you my bug reports, a crashdump, and anything else you need to see. I'm losing a working EMACS roughly five times a day these days, and often am losing substantial amounts of work when it croaks. I really can't believe that no one is interested in fixing such fundamental bugs in EMACS, bugs that have been biting other pepole regularly as well. If someone wants to help, thanx.  Date: 20 Aug 1983 12:14 EDT (Sat) Message-ID: <[MIT-OZ].MARTY.20-Aug-83 12:14:25> From: Martin David Connor To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-OZ Subject: Date Edit M-X Date Edit used to put the name of the machine in the Like that it generated, something like: ;[OZ]SS:FOO.BAR.1, 20-Aug-83 12:09:34, Edit by MARTY Now all I get is: ;FOO.BAR.1, 20-Aug-83 12:12:10, Edit by MARTY Which is too ambiguous. Could someone please make it generate an entire filename (it leaves off the structure too) and put in the machine name? I think it does this on XX. This is especially important when porting software around. The extra bits are very useful. Thanks.  Date: 17 Aug 1983 2209-MDT From: Donald Rudisill Subject: vt125 To: bug-emacs@MIT-MC Do you have the terminal characteristics that allow emacs to be run off of a VAX on a vt125 and vt102 terminal.? If so could you please send us the file(s). THX -------  Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1983 01:50 EDT Message-ID: <[MIT-OZ].KLOTZ. 9-Aug-83 01:50:59> From: Leigh L. Klotz To: Scott Jenson cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Recompile problems... In-reply-to: Msg of 8 Aug 1983 20:10-EDT from Scott Jenson Try reading INFO:CONV.INFO. "Attempted to macro a meaningless number" is too low level an error message to be indicative of any particular problem. What sort of changes did you merge in?  Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 17:10:47-PDT From: Scott Jenson Subject: Recompile problems... To: info-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA To whom it may concern, When the SUMEX DEC-2060 computer facility here at Stanford first started, we got our EMACS lock stock and barrel from another 2060 on campus. Things have been great until we tried to write our own changes to the source code. In recompiling, the following seems to work fine: @midas *temp_teco @iddt *;ytemp *purify$g But, the next line: *mmrun$purify$dump$nemacs.exe$ Bops you into an emacs buffer and flashes a "Attempted to macro a meaningless number?" error at you. Does anyone know of any host quirks that may cause this? And while we're at it, is there any documentation of any kind on general EMACS support, this hit and miss approach that we're using is just plain tedious. Thanks in advance, --Scott Jenson -------  Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 17:10:47-PDT From: Scott Jenson Subject: Recompile problems... To: info-emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA To whom it may concern, When the SUMEX DEC-2060 computer facility here at Stanford first started, we got our EMACS lock stock and barrel from another 2060 on campus. Things have been great until we tried to write our own changes to the source code. In recompiling, the following seems to work fine: @midas *temp_teco @iddt *;ytemp *purify$g But, the next line: *mmrun$purify$dump$nemacs.exe$ Bops you into an emacs buffer and flashes a "Attempted to macro a meaningless number?" error at you. Does anyone know of any host quirks that may cause this? And while we're at it, is there any documentation of any kind on general EMACS support, this hit and miss approach that we're using is just plain tedious. Thanks in advance, --Scott Jenson -------  Date: Mon 8 Aug 83 12:42:12-PDT From: Jack Alpert Subject: biblio sort errors To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA I am trying to get the sort command in the biblio library to work. It used to work but now it is broken. When used on a two entry file it gives an error "Addressed a character not in the buffer." If you have an suggestions I would appreciate them. Also is their any way to get the documentation for the emacs biblio library printed in hard copy. Thanks, Jack Alpert -------  Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1983 15:40 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: David Eppstein Cc: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: SLOWLY/2-window interaction In-reply-to: Msg of 27 Jul 1983 14:55-EDT from David Eppstein  Received: from TARTAN by CMU-CS-C with TLnet; 28 Jul 83 10:20:26-EDT Received: ID ; Thu 28 Jul 83 10:20:34-EDT Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1983 10:20 EDT From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: [RICH%MIT-OZ: ** New ZEmacs **] The problem described in the following messages was determined to be a problem with Teco/Emacs on VTS rather than a problem with ZEmacs only. The solution to this problem is to have Teco execute the following code as part of its startup sequence: Movei A,.CtTrm Rtmod% Tlo B,(Tm%Scr) Stmod% 20-Jul-83 17:51:31-EDT,657;000000000000 Date: 20 Jul 1983 09:50 EDT (Wed) From: Charles Rich To: Leonard N. Zubkoff Re: ** New ZEmacs ** Leonard - Your new release seems to have the echo area default size set to 2 instead of 3. This would be a win (I tried it before) except that some interaction bug between the Emacs and Twenex (I think it has to do with a system call used in the echo area printing a CR at the end that cannot be suppressed) causes the top line of the display to be wiped out whenever a command like C-X C-W is used. Unless you can fix this bug, I am afraid you have to change the default back to 3. -CR 20-Jul-83 21:14:44-EDT,1113;000000000000 Date: 20 Jul 1983 20:47 EDT (Wed) From: Charles Rich To: Leonard N. Zubkoff cc: Charles Rich Re: ** New ZEmacs ** Leonard - The problem I described is independent of your modifications to Emacs, as far as I know. I discovered it a long time ago when I tried to shrink the default echo size area from 3 to 2 running on a local terminal without Zemacs. Apparently it is a well known Emacs-Twenex screw. If you know a way to fix it, I am sure that the Emacs hackers here would be happy to hear it (the bug has been reported to them). For now, the only fix I know is to change the echo area size back to 3, as I now do in my Emacs init file. -Chuck. P.S. I will almost swear that other people are experiencing this problem but haven't reported it since it is intermittent. It took me several weeks to notice it myself back when I reduced my echo area in Emacs to 2. It only occurs when Emacs uses the Twenex system call to get completing read of file names, as in certain commands like C-X C-W. 21-Jul-83 01:49:08-EDT,1956;000000000000 Date: Thursday, 21 July 1983 01:49-EDT From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Charles Rich Re: ** New ZEmacs ** Charles, It seems strange to me that such a well-known Emacs-Twenex screw has never hit me in over three years of almost exclusively using local terminals with two echo lines on CMUC and TARTAN. Let me see if we agree on exactly what's happening. At some point, one executes a command such as C-X C-W that does a Comnd% parse of a file name from the echo area. The entire prompt plus file name fits on one line (right below the mode line), as in Write File (Default PS:MAIL.TEMP.0): Foo.bar.5 and yet the CR somehow echoes in a manner that causes the top line of the screen to (1) disappear entirely or (2) be cleared. And this problem only manifests itself on local terminals (not Chaos, for example). Has this problem actually happened to you with the new ZEmacs and if so, is it repeatable on demand? If not on demand, does it happen at all consistently? Have you ever seen the problem on other than a Concept-LNZ terminal? Concept-HDS terminal? Does this only happen on MIT Twenices, or have you seen it occur elsewhere as well? Does it only happen with WRAP mode, or with SCROLL as well? My suspicion is that MIT's WRAP mode, which is an extension to Tops-20, is causing a CR or LF to automatically WRAP and clear the top line of the screen when it shouldn't (that's why I need to know if the top line is really cleared, deleted, or merely scrolled off the top but still present in the terminal). If you can give me a good idea what the conditions are that make this happen, perhaps I will be able to find the problem, or come up with a way around it. As a last resort, there's going back to 3 echo lines, but to do that right I'd have to re-build special versions of the screen managers with that knowledge built in. Leonard 22-Jul-83 12:16:18-EDT,3800;000000000000 Date: 22 Jul 1983 12:03 EDT (Fri) From: Charles Rich To: Leonard N. Zubkoff cc: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC, Bug-Exec%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC, Rich%MIT-OZ at MIT-MC Re: 2 Echolines Bug Return-path: Received: from TARTAN by CMU-CS-C with TLnet; 21 Jul 83 01:47:59-EDT Received: ID ; Thu 21 Jul 83 01:49:09-EDT Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1983 01:49 EDT From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Charles Rich Subject: ** New ZEmacs ** Charles, It seems strange to me that such a well-known Emacs-Twenex screw has never hit me in over three years of almost exclusively using local terminals with two echo lines on CMUC and TARTAN. Let me see if we agree on exactly what's happening. At some point, one executes a command such as C-X C-W that does a Comnd% parse of a file name from the echo area. The entire prompt plus file name fits on one line (right below the mode line), as in Write File (Default PS:MAIL.TEMP.0): Foo.bar.5 With echolines set to 2. and yet the CR somehow echoes in a manner that causes the top line of the screen to (1) disappear entirely or (2) be cleared. I think the problem is that a second CR is getting generated by the system call prompt in addition to the one that I type to end the command in Emacs. I am not sure of the distinction you mean. It becomes blank. The rest of the screen is unchanged And this problem only manifests itself on local terminals (not Chaos, for example). No, I can repeat the problem on C108 through dialup into hardwire port, and on AAA through our Chaosnet terminal concentrator, and on local hardwire AAA. Has this problem actually happened to you with the new ZEmacs and if so, is it repeatable on demand? If not on demand, does it happen at all consistently? It is repeatable on demand with both standard Emacs, the old ZEmacs and the new ZEmacs. Have you ever seen the problem on other than a Concept-LNZ terminal? Concept-HDS terminal? See above. Does this only happen on MIT Twenices, or have you seen it occur elsewhere as well? I don't know. Does it only happen with WRAP mode, or with SCROLL as well? My suspicion is that MIT's WRAP mode, which is an extension to Tops-20, is causing a CR or LF to automatically WRAP and clear the top line of the screen when it shouldn't (that's why I need to know if the top line is really cleared, deleted, or merely scrolled off the top but still present in the terminal). **** Yes, I think you are right. If I set TERM NO WRAP before I start up the Emacs, then the problem goes away. It also seems that if I turn WRAP back on afterward, the problem does not come back, i.e. Emacs caches this terminal parameters. This suggests that the solution might be just to fix this parameters in Emacs to always be No Wrap, regardless of what the external environment is. (P.S. I can't stand scrolling in my exec.) If you can give me a good idea what the conditions are that make this happen, perhaps I will be able to find the problem, or come up with a way around it. Thanks, very much for your effort. It would be nice to have the extra line of editing space. As a last resort, there's going back to 3 echo lines, but to do that right I'd have to re-build special versions of the screen managers with that knowledge built in. Strange. I reset echolines to 3 in my init file using the new Zemacs on my C108 dialup, and it seems to work perfectly. Leonard Chuck. 28-Jul-83 09:06:15-EDT,868;000000000000 Date: 28 Jul 1983 08:58 EDT (Thu) From: Charles Rich To: Leonard N. Zubkoff cc: Charles Rich Re: 2 Echolines Bug From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Charles Rich Subject: 2 Echolines Bug Charles, I've just installed a new ZEmacs into which has been added code to set the terminal to scroll mode within ZEmacs. Since I can't generate the problem, I'd appreciate it if you'd test this out and let me know it that solves the problem for you. Leonard BINGO! That does it! Thanks a million. By the way, could you forward the solution to BUG-EMACS, so that we can reduce our echolines to 2 locally also. (I assume it is something that can't be accessed through Teco). -Chuck.  Date: 27 Jul 1983 11:55 PDT (Wed) From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: SLOWLY/2-window interaction In two window mode, if you set Slow Search Lines Used to 0 and do an I-Search that goes past the bottom of the window, SLOWLY will use the whole screen (rather than just the current window). I fixed this at Sierra by putting q.1"n ' around the call to ^R Set Screen Size; could whoever's responsible fix it in the source?  Received: from TARTAN by CMU-CS-C with TLnet; 27 Jul 83 00:37:33-EDT Received: ID ; Wed 27 Jul 83 00:38:14-EDT Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1983 00:38 EDT From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Charles Rich Cc: Bug-Emacs%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA, Bug-Exec%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: 2 Echolines Bug In-reply-to: Msg of 22 Jul 1983 12:03 EDT (Fri) from Charles Rich Charles, I'm building a version of ZEmacs with space for site-specific patches to be installed so that I can turn wrap mode off within ZEmacs. Can you find out for me the appropriate monitor call to turn wrap mode on and off. It's probably an Mtopr%. Ideally, the monitor maintainers on OZ should fix this problem at its source, but I gather that is unlikely. ZEmacs still functions with a 3 line echo area, but the mode line is then included in the insert/delete line algorithm, causing the mode line to jump around the screen when it shouldn't, and reaulting in more redisplay than is necessary. Leonard  Date: 22 Jul 1983 12:03 EDT (Fri) From: Charles Rich To: Leonard N. Zubkoff Cc: Bug-Emacs@MIT-OZ, Bug-Exec@MIT-OZ, Rich@MIT-OZ Subject: 2 Echolines Bug In-reply-to: Msg of 21 Jul 1983 01:49-EDT from Leonard N. Zubkoff Return-path: Received: from TARTAN by CMU-CS-C with TLnet; 21 Jul 83 01:47:59-EDT Received: ID ; Thu 21 Jul 83 01:49:09-EDT Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1983 01:49 EDT From: Leonard N. Zubkoff To: Charles Rich Subject: ** New ZEmacs ** Charles, It seems strange to me that such a well-known Emacs-Twenex screw has never hit me in over three years of almost exclusively using local terminals with two echo lines on CMUC and TARTAN. Let me see if we agree on exactly what's happening. At some point, one executes a command such as C-X C-W that does a Comnd% parse of a file name from the echo area. The entire prompt plus file name fits on one line (right below the mode line), as in Write File (Default PS:MAIL.TEMP.0): Foo.bar.5 With echolines set to 2. and yet the CR somehow echoes in a manner that causes the top line of the screen to (1) disappear entirely or (2) be cleared. I think the problem is that a second CR is getting generated by the system call prompt in addition to the one that I type to end the command in Emacs. I am not sure of the distinction you mean. It becomes blank. The rest of the screen is unchanged And this problem only manifests itself on local terminals (not Chaos, for example). No, I can repeat the problem on C108 through dialup into hardwire port, and on AAA through our Chaosnet terminal concentrator, and on local hardwire AAA. Has this problem actually happened to you with the new ZEmacs and if so, is it repeatable on demand? If not on demand, does it happen at all consistently? It is repeatable on demand with both standard Emacs, the old ZEmacs and the new ZEmacs. Have you ever seen the problem on other than a Concept-LNZ terminal? Concept-HDS terminal? See above. Does this only happen on MIT Twenices, or have you seen it occur elsewhere as well? I don't know. Does it only happen with WRAP mode, or with SCROLL as well? My suspicion is that MIT's WRAP mode, which is an extension to Tops-20, is causing a CR or LF to automatically WRAP and clear the top line of the screen when it shouldn't (that's why I need to know if the top line is really cleared, deleted, or merely scrolled off the top but still present in the terminal). **** Yes, I think you are right. If I set TERM NO WRAP before I start up the Emacs, then the problem goes away. It also seems that if I turn WRAP back on afterward, the problem does not come back, i.e. Emacs caches this terminal parameters. This suggests that the solution might be just to fix this parameters in Emacs to always be No Wrap, regardless of what the external environment is. (P.S. I can't stand scrolling in my exec.) If you can give me a good idea what the conditions are that make this happen, perhaps I will be able to find the problem, or come up with a way around it. Thanks, very much for your effort. It would be nice to have the extra line of editing space. As a last resort, there's going back to 3 echo lines, but to do that right I'd have to re-build special versions of the screen managers with that knowledge built in. Strange. I reset echolines to 3 in my init file using the new Zemacs on my C108 dialup, and it seems to work perfectly. Leonard Chuck.  Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1983 02:24 EDT From: Leonard N. Foner To: bug-EMACS@MIT-OZ, bug-Babyl@MIT-OZ Subject: Undefined operation codes cc: Tk.Foner@MIT-OZ Reply-to: Foner at MIT-MC Many, many times tonight, my EMACS has unexpectedly died due to undefined opcodes being executed at various random points. Most of the time, it happened while inside Babyl. It happened solidly whenever I used the ^W command, and randomly on Space and n as well. I was reading a fairly large Babyl file, but smaller than I have sometimes used. (I often get ?Illegal memory reference errors looking at large files with EMACS... another bug which no one seems to have ever answered.) Usually, I got messages like ?Illegal instruction 37000,,52053 at 7607 ?Undefined operation code or sometimes at address 13121. The opcode was always 37000,,52053. Reentering sometimes worked (which left me at the normal EMACS level, requiring a ^X r to get back into Babyl). Sometimes, a Reenter would cause another trap at another random address. A couple of times, in the middle of updating the screen, EMACS would die with an illegal instruction of 0 at 0. This was, of course, unrecoverable. Unfortunately, this is not repeatable, and I run a very customized EMACS, including, no doubt, the new MODLIN package that just came out (I have no idea if that has anything in the world to do with it... I'm grasping at straws). What I'd like to be able to do is to write out a crashdump file of my EMACS just after it's blown up, so someone can look at its core image and find out what's going on. How can I do this? This bug has bitten me every so often before now, but tonight it happened around 20 times, which seems slightly excessive, and required me to reset my EMACS fork roughly 8 times. While I'm reporting bugs, by the way, I've found a bug in the EMACS display update routines. If one has a very long single line (longer than a screenful), searching for a string in it leaves the cursor positioned \one line higher/ than it should be. Typing ^U^L or a simple ^L lands the cursor where it belongs, so obviously it is the update and not the search that is failing. This is absolutely repeatable. Thanx much, folks.  Date: 21 Jul 1983 12:35 EDT (Thu) From: Daniel Brotsky To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: addendum to interaction between M-X and ZEMACS I just looked through the code for M-X, and I realize that a more general fix might be to have Read Command Name and Read Line (and cohorts) do 0^S commands just before returning to their callers.  Date: 21 Jul 1983 12:31 EDT (Thu) From: Daniel Brotsky To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: interaction between M-X and ZEMACS Would it be possible to change the definition of M-X so that ZEMACS updates the cursor position after the user types a carriage return? I often find myself wondering, as a command executes, whether there is a command executing or whether my carriage return didn't get through. Perhaps a 0^S command could be issued just before the user command is executed? dan  Date: 21 July 1983 04:32 EDT From: Kent M. Pitman Subject: Change to the MODLIN library To: INFO-EMACS-RECIPIENTS @ MIT-MC The MODLIN library now supports a new option, which allows you to see your filenames in inverted order (as on a Lisp Machine, if you're familiar with that). The variable is Invert Filenames, which defaults to 0 (the old behavior). If you set it to 1, you get inverted filenames. eg, Normal Inverted FOO;BAR > BAR > FOO; on ITS PS:BAR.TXT BAR.TXT PS: on Twenex This may be useful for people who care more about what filename they are editing than what directory it is on and who typically use filenames long enough that some part of the filename gets trucated in their modeline for lack of space. This features is available in MODLIN version 67, which has been distributed to XX, ML, MC, DM, and OZ. Sources are on MC: EMACS1; MODLIN 67 and OZ:PS:MODLIN.EMACS.67 Please report bugs to KMP@MC. -kmp  Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1983 05:53 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: Gail Zacharias Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, bug-teco@MIT-OZ Subject: reading filenames in the echo area with fs echo line set to 2. In-reply-to: Msg of 19 Jul 1983 01:41-EDT from Gail Zacharias this is an oz-specific, or at least, mit-specific bug. it doesn't happen to me on bbn systems. hacking teco to redisplay the top line is attacking the problem at the wrong level, and invites other bugs. Leigh.  Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1983 01:41 EDT From: Gail Zacharias To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, bug-teco@MIT-OZ Subject: reading filenames in the echo area I have FSECHOLIN$ set to 2. On Twenex, or at least on OZ, whenever I have to enter a filename in the echo area (e.g. ^X^W), the top line of the screen is cleared, apparently during echo of the terminating CR. This is very annoying - I have to position the cursor to the top line and do M-0 C-L then find my way back to where I was, a non-trivial operation. If this can't be fixed, could Teco or Emacs please arrange to force refreshing of the top line in this situation? (i.e. after reading a filename when fsecholin$ is less than 3).  Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1983 23:05 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz to: bug-emacs@MIT-MC, Martin Giles Subject: FS OSPEED problem In-reply-to: Msg of 13 Jul 1983 13:49-EDT from David Eppstein It's OK to set FS OSPEED to something equal to or lower than the baud rate (obviously). This is advantageous if you're running at 1200 baud and EMACS thinks you're at 9600. By setting FS OSPEED you can avoid the extra padding. I believe, also, that you get a slightly different behavior at speeds 1200&below with the ^V/M-V commands on terminals supporting I/D line. Kronj has already pointed out that the problem you're experiencing is due to your terminal buffer overflowing and sending ^S in the ASCII XON-XOFF protocol. While it's possible to get Twenex to pay attention to these characters while EMACS is running, it's not very useful since you can't use the ^S or ^Q keys as commands or inside strings. Leigh.  Date: 13 Jul 1983 10:49 PDT (Wed) From: David Eppstein To: Martin Giles Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-MC Subject: FS OSPEED problem In-reply-to: Msg of 13 Jul 1983 10:39-PDT from Martin Giles I assume you are using a Heath terminal. These terminals need padding for EMACS's display support, and if not paddded enough will send ^S/^Q to try to make the computer slow down what it is sending. Telling EMACS that the terminal is at 300 baud has the effect of making it not pad enough. You should probably just leave fsOSPEED alone.  Date: Wed 13 Jul 83 10:39:35-PDT From: Martin Giles Subject: FS OSPEED problem To: bug-emacs@SU-SIERRA.ARPA Address: P.O. Box 5361, Stanford, CA 94305 Phone: (415) 326-2997 Office: McCullough 104, Stanford Phone: (415) 497-4194 Emacs version 162 Teco version 118010 I am having a problem when I use fs ospeed to set my terminal speed, as described on p.166 of the emacs manual (AI memo 555, 7 Oct 81). I am connected over an ethernet so the default value for the flag is zero. In order to speed up redisplay, my init file changes the value to 300 whenever it is zero. This causes the ^R Kill Region command to pop into incremental search mode during the subsequent redisplay. The problem can be seen in barest form by doing the following:- --------------- Start Emacs without any personal init file Use minibuffer to set the flag $$300fsospeed$$ Find a file - does not seem to matter what it is ^X^Fdoc:mm.doc Set mark at the top, then move down 12 lines ^@^U12^N Kill the region ^W During the residplay the screen gets a few garbage characters and Emacs enters incremental search mode - prompted at bottom of screen. The buffer is OK, with the region deleted as it should be. ---------- The problem was discovered when connected over an ethernet, but has been reproduced when connected by hard wired line (9600 baud). Thanks in advance for your help, Martin Giles -------  Date: Sun 10 Jul 83 21:35:24-PDT From: Jim Lewinson Subject: Bug in Emacs version 760(3761)-4 (ISPELL linkage) To: Bug-Emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA If one does a Meta-Dollarsign with the cursor right after "." in "foo.", EMACS hands some sort of strange string to ISPELL that causes ISPELL to become confused and not return to EMACS. Jim -------  Date: 8 July 1983 20:02 EDT From: David C. Plummer To: KLOTZ @ MIT-OZ cc: ZVONA @ MIT-OZ, bug-emacs @ MIT-OZ, bug-supdup @ MIT-OZ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1983 13:48 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz In-reply-to: Msg of 8 Jul 1983 11:56-EDT from ZVONA Date: Friday, 8 July 1983 11:56-EDT From: ZVONA To: bug-emacs It seems to be the case that if you type c-u c-@, then you have to wait for the c-U to be displayed at the bottom of the screen before typing the c-@, or else it (the c-@) is ignored. This is not the case for c-U in general (e.g. c-U c-B works fine). I thought I was hallucinating this for a long time, since it seems like such an odd behavior, but I am pretty sure it is true. This is a supdup bug. Bullshit. Try this on SPEECH. I'll bet the bug doesn't happen there. This is DEC pulling another brain death when making Release 5. It has to do with some idiotic notion that ^@ should be ignored except when not at interrupt level (or something like that).  Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1983 13:48 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: ZVONA@MIT-OZ Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, bug-supdup@MIT-OZ In-reply-to: Msg of 8 Jul 1983 11:56-EDT from ZVONA Date: Friday, 8 July 1983 11:56-EDT From: ZVONA To: bug-emacs It seems to be the case that if you type c-u c-@, then you have to wait for the c-U to be displayed at the bottom of the screen before typing the c-@, or else it (the c-@) is ignored. This is not the case for c-U in general (e.g. c-U c-B works fine). I thought I was hallucinating this for a long time, since it seems like such an odd behavior, but I am pretty sure it is true. This is a supdup bug.  Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1983 11:56 EDT From: ZVONA@MIT-OZ To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ It seems to be the case that if you type c-u c-@, then you have to wait for the c-U to be displayed at the bottom of the screen before typing the c-@, or else it (the c-@) is ignored. This is not the case for c-U in general (e.g. c-U c-B works fine). I thought I was hallucinating this for a long time, since it seems like such an odd behavior, but I am pretty sure it is true.  Received: from [128.2.254.192] by CMU-CS-PT with CMUFTP; 6 Jul 83 01:51:32 EDT Date: 6 Jul 83 0155 EDT (Wednesday) From: Guy.Steele@CMU-CS-A To: bug-teco@MIT-MC Subject: Running out of "macro" frames CC: bug-emacs@MIT-MC I just spent about eight hours trying to figure out how code that wasn't calling any macros or using any ^] commands whatsoever could trigger the error "TMN" (too many nested macros, ^]^X, ^]^Y, or ^]qreg). This error is particularly insidious because it is effectively a PDL overflow, thereby blowing away all the debugging and backtrace aids, because there's no pdl to work with. It turns out that creating buffers and Q-vectors uses up macro frames also, as nearly as I can tell, and there is a rather low limit on the number that can be created (about a hundred or so). My application was creating an elaborate data structure using nested Q-vectors. I have three recommendations: (1) The error message should be clarified to indicate more clearly the possible sources of overflow. (2) It should be allowable to create many more Q-vectors than currently possible. I appreciate the need for a limit on runaway macros, but the limit (expressed by MFMAX) should be variable. Either Q-vector creation should circumvent the overflow test, or there should be an FS flag for raising the limit. (3) When overflow occurs, the limit should be raised automatically to allow the debugging routines (cf. Q..P) a little room to work in. --Guy  Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1983 10:56 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: David Vinayak Wallace Cc: BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: EMACS tags table In-reply-to: Msg of 4 Jul 1983 06:38-EDT from David Vinayak Wallace Some source files for EMACS live on MC -- mostly Babyl and Ivory. The tags stuff there is out of date now because other files live on OZ, which isn't accessable from MC as AI was. Leigh.  Date: 4 July 1983 06:38 EDT From: David Vinayak Wallace Subject: EMACS tags table To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC MC:EMACS;EMACS TAGS is sorely in need of updating. All the files it refers to are on AI. It hasn't been updated since 81 anyway. Is MC now the emacs ur-site?  Mail-From: RATHMANN created at 30-Jun-83 18:57:50 Date: Thu 30 Jun 83 18:57:50-PDT From: Peter K. Rathmann Subject: emacs/pascal question To: action@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: RATHMANN@SU-SCORE.ARPA ReSent-date: Thu 30 Jun 83 19:26:17-PDT ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: BUG-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA Pascal errlist from emacs seems to have broken. Specifically when I do a M-X compile, it pops to the exec, spits out commands which look like they are trying to get a file compiled, but the commands are "not confirmed". Is there a way to fix this or get around it? Incidently, does Score have a gripe program or mailbox? Action was about the fourth thing I tried. Thanks, Peter -------  Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1983 12:24 EDT From: BATALI@MIT-OZ To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Bug with using Meta-X send I send a message as follows: (From EMACS): M-X SEND C-Z C-Z The message is successfully sent, but then I get a beep and the error message: QNS Q-register not string or buffer? Which goes away with control-L. The next time I do M-X SEND, I get the same error message right after EMACS prints out: To: Slightly later, another error message pops up saying something about macrofying a number. All these go away with control-L, but are still annoying. Also: after sending a message I would like to end up in the buffer from whence I came.  Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Tue 28 Jun 83 10:11:38-PDT Date: 28 Jun 1983 10:12 PDT (Tue) From: David Eppstein To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC Subject: [Q.QUASAR: EMACS [Gripe, tty17:]] Date: Sunday, 5 June 1983 12:20-PDT From: Q.QUASAR at SU-LOTS-B To: Bug-EMACS at SU-LOTS-B Re: EMACS [Gripe, tty17:] the function ^R uncomment region doesn't seem to work. It only removes the 1st (* of each comment in the region, without doing anything about the final *) or the material in between. -Laurence  Date: Sunday, June 26, 1983 11:40PM-EDT From: Michael J. Konopik Subject: YECH! To: BUG-emacs at MIT-OZ For some strange reason, EMACS has started sending bogus codes to my bitgraph, causing the echo to go off. I am setting my tty to bitgraph, and when I start up an emacs, it kills echo. Perhaps the escape codes changed with the new versions of bitgraphs and it is sending something that used to do the right thing, and now kills it? That would really suck, but I can't recall it doing it to this particular tty before... -Mike  Date: 21 June 1983 09:01 EDT From: David C. Plummer Subject: cli interrupts and emacs To: PGS @ MIT-OZ cc: KMP @ MIT-MC, BUG-ITS @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Date: Tuesday, 21 June 1983, 04:23-EDT From: Patrick Sobalvarro I guess I'm a loser. I do use MODLIN. So am I, and so do I. I'd like to be a winner who uses MODLIN, though.  Date: Tuesday, 21 June 1983, 04:23-EDT From: Patrick Sobalvarro Subject: cli interrupts and emacs To: KMP@MIT-MC CC: BUG-ITS@MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS@MIT-MC In-reply-to: The message of 21 Jun 83 04:05-EDT from Kent M. Pitman Date: 21 June 1983 04:05 EDT From: Kent M. Pitman Do you use the MODLIN library? (For reasons I have never traced down, having this loaded seems to defeat Emacs' ability to recognize the tty having been potentially munged by superior typeout.) If you don't use the MODLIN library, perhaps you are a new data point. I guess I'm a loser (not a new data point, ha ha). I do use MODLIN.  Date: 21 June 1983 04:05 EDT From: Kent M. Pitman Sender: ___004 @ MIT-MC Subject: cli interrupts and emacs To: PGS @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-ITS @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Do you use the MODLIN library? (For reasons I have never traced down, having this loaded seems to defeat Emacs' ability to recognize the tty having been potentially munged by superior typeout.) If you don't use the MODLIN library, perhaps you are a new data point.  Date: 21 June 1983 03:58 EDT From: Alan Bawden Subject: cli interrupts and emacs To: PGS @ MIT-MC cc: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-ITS @ MIT-MC In-reply-to: Msg of 21 Jun 1983 01:27 EDT from Patrick G. Sobalvarro Date: 21 June 1983 01:27 EDT From: Patrick G. Sobalvarro Correct me if I'm wrong, but once upon a time I seem to remember having Emacs uderstand that I'd gotten my screen bashed and redisplay it after a CLI interrupt as soon as I typed a character. This was a nice feature, something Twenex emacs couldn't do because of the way tty messages work there. Well, it doesn't work anymore. After a CLI interrupt, when I type characters, my Emacs doesn't redisplay at all. It doesn't do anything until I type something like ^L, which is an ECHOIN break character. Is ECHOIN broken? CStacy has complained of something like this in the past. DCP, I believe, claimed to have seen this too. I have never seen it. Is it reproducable? (I don't see how ECHOIN can itself be at fault, this works by having Emacs enable %PIATY interrupts, but perhaps emacs does does something bogus when it finds that this interrupt occured during an ECHOIN. I am pretty sure I have tested that case trying to reproduce this lossage, but I have never seen it fail... I just tried to find the source of TECO, but I couldn't, I wonder where it is?)  Date: 21 June 1983 01:27 EDT From: Patrick G. Sobalvarro Subject: cli interrupts and emacs To: BUG-ITS @ MIT-MC, BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Correct me if I'm wrong, but once upon a time I seem to remember having Emacs uderstand that I'd gotten my screen bashed and redisplay it after a CLI interrupt as soon as I typed a character. This was a nice feature, something Twenex emacs couldn't do because of the way tty messages work there. Well, it doesn't work anymore. After a CLI interrupt, when I type characters, my Emacs doesn't redisplay at all. It doesn't do anything until I type something like ^L, which is an ECHOIN break character. Is ECHOIN broken?  Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1983 23:42 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: GERSTEN@MIT-OZ Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: decapitalization In-reply-to: Msg of 14 Jun 1983 22:11-EDT from GERSTEN Probably what's happening is the following You exit EMACS whith ^X-^C. Control returns to the exec immediately on the ^C, leaving EMACS with a ^X pending. You return to EMACS and type ^L to redisplay the screen. EMACS performs ^X-^L (Lowercase Region). You can avoid this by exiting EMACS with Z-^Z. Note that you'll get the same problem on ITS if you exit with ^X-^Z, which is a "clean exit" command on TOPS-20. I prefer to exit via ^Z-^Z, which is a "clean exit" command on TOPS-20, and just does two ^Z's on ITS.  Date: 14 Jun 1983 2211-EDT From: GERSTEN@MIT-OZ Subject: decapitalization To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ I'm not sure the bug is in emacs, but rather frequently I find that some of my sentences in a tex file lose their leading capitalization. Other times, all capital letters go to lower case. Any suggestions? -------  Mail-From: NOWICKI created at 14-Jun-83 19:03:07 Date: Tue 14 Jun 83 19:03:07-PDT From: Bill Nowicki Subject: SUN terminal type To: mrc@SU-SCORE.ARPA ReSent-date: Tue 14 Jun 83 19:03:37-PDT ReSent-from: Mark Crispin ReSent-to: BUG-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA recently I discovered little black blotches would appear every now and then on my SUN terminal emulator when running Emacs on Score. Taking a closer look I discovered that it was because score was sending me lots of DEL characters (0177), probably because it thought I was a losing vt100 and therefore needed lots of padding. I fixed it by ignoring 0177s, but the "sun" terminal type actually does not need any padding, so removing it would make the network communication a little more effecient. Thanks, Bill -------  Date: Mon 13 Jun 83 13:07:02-PDT From: Jon Abbis Subject: Internal Info tree To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA Stanford-Phone: (415) 497-9798 When reading the emacs internal info, is it possible to make a hardcopy of what one is reading? Thanks. -Jon -------  Date: 6 June 1983 13:11-EDT (Monday) From: David H. Kaufman To: Bug-Emacs at Mc Cc: Sr.Kaufman at MIT-SPEECH Subject: MM Write File$ problems First some background . . . I have a directory on Speech with a whole mess of subdirectories (all off the public structure, although I doubt that matters). Every time I was connected to (say) Ss: and tried to write a file to, for instance, Ss:, I would get an error saying that I needed write or owner access to the source file. I finally got sick of trying different protection codes (file protection codes, directory protection codes, default file protection codes -- aieeee!) and wrote a quick hack into MM Write File that always tried to connect to a directory before writing into it. I called Tcompile on it and everything worked beautifully, so I installed it in the library my init file loads. Now the problem . . . When I load my Init file, somehow my MM Write File gets ignored and the default one is used. If I do a Tcompile on the source code, the problem goes away again until I start a new Emacs. Short of the ugly solution of calling Tcompile on my Write File as part of my init library, does anybody know how to fix this problem? (Actually, I suppose the proper solution might be to set up the myriad protection codes properly, but I couldn't figure out how to do that. I don't even know if it's possible!) - David  Date: 4 June 1983 16:00 EDT From: Richard P. Wilkes Subject: HELP! To: INFO-EMACS-RECIPIENTS @ MIT-MC I have several files which only have ^M as a line ender instead of CR-LF. I cannot seem to get the Replace String function to work since the search doesn't recognize the ^M alone and the control prefix doesn't work either. Help! These files are unreadable unless I can change the CR to CR LF. -r  CENT@MIT-ML 06/04/83 06:10:06 Re: replying to bad comsat address -- more lossage To: (BUG MAIL) at MIT-ML, (BUG EMACS) at MIT-ML i got the following msg (i suspect length is important) because i meant spitzak@oz but didn't say that. when i used R in RMAIL to reply, zapping in the text and other headers and leaving me to supply a more correct address, i noticed that not all of the msg had been yanked in. the yanked-in text started at " tape that it...." and went on to the end, but contained none of the previous lines of the msg. i notice that that line is exactly the top line of the second page of the failed msg as displayed on my vt52; maybe this has a bearing? also, the subject header i had supplied for the failed msg was not yanked into the second try. ---------- COMSAT@MIT-ML 06/04/83 05:58:11 Re: Msg of Saturday, 4 June 1983 05:58 EDT To: CENT at MIT-ML ============ A copy of your message is being returned, because: ============ "SPITZAK" at MIT-ML is an unknown recipient. ============ Failed message follows: ============ CENT@MIT-ML 06/04/83 05:58:06 Re: file retrieval Date: 2 Jun 1983 15:29 EDT (Thu) From: Martin David Connor To: File-r@MIT-OZ The right place to send these requests is FILE-R, which is where I am forwarding this one. Date: Thursday, June 2, 1983 2:45PM-EDT From: Bill Spitzak To: MARTY [This was a failing send] ------- Could you please restore PS:SCRIPT.MSS from the last backup tape that it exists on (probably the latest one). Contact Richard Waters (DICK) if you need confirmation that this is okay. we certainly don't need anybody's confirmation to reload files as long as they won't crash the system by merely being put online. i would gladly retrieve your script.mss file if it were on tape. however, it seems not to be. the most recent incremental dump before you sent your msg was tuesday night. are you sure the structure, directory, etc. are correct? perhaps you accidently wrote the file on a different directory? sorry about this.  Date: 29 May 1983 14:32 EDT From: Frank J. Wancho Subject: A proposal To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC Tom's plea for help with adding terminal types prompted me to throw in a suggestion that would probably add a small bit of confusion to the already convoluted numbering scheme cause by having versions of TECO mixed with versions of EMACS on top of TECO. What I propose is that the entire section of TECO that deals with terminal specifications be extracted from TECO.MID and maintained separately as an .INSRT file, with its own version numbering. Why? Because we can isolate changes to TECO proper from simply an addition of yet another terminal type. TECO.MID is huge. It has been somewhat less than encouraging to FTP the entire file and run a SRCCOM to find nothing new in TECO except that someone added support for a new terminal. By separating the terminal support section, we can determine this in advance and pick up whichever is the latest. Furthermore, I would like to propose that both files, once separated, be considered a base, and that a change history be prepended to the front of each for each new version from that point. Lastly, I would like to determine if anybody's "permission" is required to make the following change: I would like to insert conditional code for the minority of TENEX sites to revert the handling of the "EOL" character. Several versions back, someone changed that section for TOPS-20 sites, and made it unuseable for TENEX sites. I'd like to put it back in the distributed version so I don't have to make local mods for each new version created, and save other TENEX sites the trouble to figure out that they would have to make the same changes. Comments? --Frank  Date: 29 May 1983 0938-PDT Sender: BHUTCHINSON at OFFICE-10 Subject: This is not a bug report From: BHutchinson@Office-10 To: bug-emacs at MIT-MC Cc: BHUTCHINSON at OFFICE-10 Message-ID: <[OFFICE-10]29-May-83 09:38:56.BHUTCHINSON> I am requesting assistance in learning how to add terminals to teco.mid so we can use our terminals with emacs. I am not an excellent programmer, but generally able to hack what you guys in that category have done so well. I want to start by adding the Zentec 9003 programmable terminal. I have reviewed teco.mid extensivly and now need to understand what things like: ior b,[.byte 8 ? 0 ? 40 ? 33 ? "K] mean. I assume the "K is escape K, the rest is Greek. I have had others add terminals for me , but I realize this is a lot of work I should be doing for myself. To do so, I need to know where to look for expertise. The reason for sending to this group is that I understand this is the group with all the expertise, so where else could I better turn? Sincere thanks for any advise and assistance. Tom  Date: 23 May 1983 23:40 EDT (Mon) From: David Vinayak Wallace To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Twenex DIRED file display When you are deleting the greatest version of a file with DIRED, the confirmation display ought to indicate it with a ">" in the display. Likewise, un-backed-up files ought to have a "!". Also, it would be nice to be able to delete files had been GFRed. Currently you get "File is offline" or somesuch. If this had worked like it does under ITS, I wouldn't be running DUMPER at this moment. david  Date: Fri 20 May 83 20:57:36-PDT From: David Eppstein Subject: Enhancement to MWIND library To: Bug-EMACS@MIT-MC.ARPA I have finally gotten around to writing Compare Windows for MWIND. Installed at MC as EMACS1;MWIND 6 and EMACS;MWIND ^Q:EJ or at Score as EMACS:MWIND.EMACS and MWIND.^V:EJ. -------  Date: 20 May 1983 19:10 EDT From: David C. Plummer To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC, BUG-COMSAT @ MIT-MC It appears that COMSAT changed the format of it's messages that it returns. It used to be that from RMAIL I could reply to such a mesasge and just fill in a new TO: field. Now, however, I get ?Searched failed from EMACS.  Date: Fri 20 May 83 15:48:35-PDT From: Anthony Yeracaris Subject: MM/EMACS To: bug-mm@SU-SCORE.ARPA, bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: yeracaris@SU-SCORE.ARPA It used to be that when I was in an EMACS sub-fork of MM that when I typed ^X^S, my message would be sent (i.e., it was equivalent to ^X^Z, entering MM SEND mode, followed by ). Now, it behaves as if I typed ^X^W, even though when I do a HELP COMMAND (^_c) ^X^S, it shows that it is still bound to ^R Save File and ^X^W is bound to Write File. What's going on? AMCY -------  Date: Mon, 16 May 1983 21:44 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ I have a handle on the Space Indent Flag bug with MIDAS mode. As you may remember, the symptoms are that Space Indent Flag gets globally set to 1 whenever MIDAS mode is entered. This causes autofilling in other buffers to lose and do a TAB at the beginning of every line. Here is the first part of the code for MIDAS Mode: M(M.M &_Init_Buffer_Locals) !* See comment at top of file.! [2 FQ2:"G :I2 MIDAS' 1,1M.L Space_Indent_Flag 1,32 M.L Comment_Column 1,(:I*;) M.L Comment_Start Note that M.L is given the 1, argument meaning to assume the local doesn't alredy exist. This is done on the Comment Column variable also, but it doesn't have this losing behavior. Neither of these variables is created by MIDAS mode -- they both already exist. If I reverse the order above, and make Comment Column be set before Space Indent Flag, the lossage doesn't happen to either variable. If anyone knows what's going on, please take a look at it. I wrote out a new version of USRCOM with the change. Leigh.  Date: Mon, 16 May 1983 21:21 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: [reid%Shasta: editor evaluations] Date: Sunday, 15 May 1983 11:02-PDT From: Brian Reid To: editor-people at SCORE Re: editor evaluations ReSent-date: Mon 16 May 83 00:01:04-PDT ReSent-from: J.Q. Johnson ReSent-to: Editor People: ; I was a participant (technical EMACS) in the Roberts-Moran study, and so was my sister (nontechnical Star). Based on those two data points I can only conclude that the entire study is fraudulent. I got my hands on a draft of the paper last fall, and exchanged quite a number of messages with Moran about it. He used magnificently circular reasoning to discount my complaints. It seems to be typical of some "researchers" in the psychology/human factors area to put data above reality, and to believe that a bunch of measurements taken to 3 significant figures, regardless of the meaning of what is being measured, constitutes truth. I suppose that in a sense he is harmless, because he will just go off and design an editor based on his idea of the truth, but it annoys me to have pseudo-fact being paraded as demonstrated truth. I normally use EMACS on a Concept-100 terminal running at 9600 baud on a lightly-loaded VAX. Like all serious EMACS users, I have a set of custom key-bindings and custom text-oriented functions that I have developed over the years, and a set of work habits and strategies based on the response speed to which I am accustomed. When I went to Xerox to participate in this study, I was required to use an Alto running a DM-2500 simulator at about 1000 baud, connected over an Ethernet link to a DEC-10 running a fairly old TENEX EMACS. I complained bitterly at the time that (a) this setup was too slow, less than 1/10th the speed at which I was accustomed to running, that (b) the keystroke/response delays were short-term unpredictable (Ethernet delays depend on other load on the ethernet), that (c) the Alto was in terrible adjustment (small fuzzy letters) and that (d) the cursor was nearly invisible [the DMchat program that they were running has two modes of operation, one with a fly-speck cursor and the other with a bigger boldface cursor, and I was unable to get the experimentor to let me fetch a version of DMchat that had a visible cursor]. A final factor invalidating the data was that DMchat/Alto shows 60 lines on the screen, so that whenever the display must be completely repainted it takes a substantial fraction of a minute (80*60/100=48 seconds to redraw the entire screen. Because of the intermittent and unpredictable delays in the Ethernet connection I was unable to make proper use of cursor-positioning commands: I had to wait for the display to quiesce after each burst of cursor commands, and I often found myself overshooting a word or a line and needing to go back the other direction. Because of the nearly-invisible cursor I was unable to make proper use of search commands for positioning the cursor; I often found myself issuing a search and then spending 10 or 15 seconds hunting for the cursor on the screen. Because of the enormous screen and the slow baud-rate I was unable to scroll through the file just looking for things, and whenever a search went off the end of the current window there was a 30-second penalty while the screen was repainted. I finally realized the big-screen problem about halfway through the editing session and split the screen into two windows and shrunk the one I was using, which helped a lot. When I complained to Moran that the data he had taken on my EMACS usage bore no relation to the way that EMACS is used in real life, he responded with the smug circular argument that "the EMACS data corresponded perfectly with the keystroke model, and therefore it must be right." This "keystroke model" is a creation of Moran and some of his colleagues, based on data that they have taken in previous years. Claiming that the keystroke model supports this data is tantamount to claiming that their sloppy experimental technique has not improved over the years, and that the measurements on which they based their keystroke model were just as bad as the measurements they are making today. I had reasons more than mere disgust with their experimental technique to be suspicious of their results. I had spent a good part of the previous summer doing BravoX editing at Xerox PARC, and had measured the number of wall clock minutes that it took me to make various changes. I often time myself for Emacs edits in my office, using my wristwatch rather than some fancy electronic measuring gear, and my speed at editing with Emacs in my office was uniformly about double my speed at editing with BravoX at Xerox, for similar kinds of material. I would be reluctant to claim even one significant figure of precision in these measurements, since the material being edited was not the same, and I included the time to take a sip of coffee, to listen to conversation in the hall, and sometimes to read the material that I was editing. But in spite of all this noise it was overwhelmingly obvious to me that Emacs let me edit much more quickly than BravoX. It is nice to have people taking real data. Numbers are often good. But numbers are not, of necessity, correct, and I think that the community of people who design and evaluate text editors needs to be extremely careful when reading the results of this particular study. It won't make a whole lot of difference to posterity whether or not Emacs is better or worse than editor X or Y, but it will certainly matter if a large body of belief about text editors gets built up from completely incorrect data. This whole Roberts/Moran study reminds me very much of the old saw about the drunk who was looking for his lost wallet under the streetlamp, even though he didn't lose it there, because the light was better. I don't think anybody really knows how to measure effectiveness of text editors as they are actually used, so instead people find things that they do know how to measure, and then concoct elaborate theories trying to tie these measurements to the elusive unmeasurable truth. Be careful of the great god whose name is Data; he is a slippery and deceitful god. Brian Reid Stanford  Date: Sun, 15 May 1983 20:52 EDT From: CLAMB@BBNG.ARPA Subject: file name defaulting To: Bug-Emacs@MIT-MC.ARPA I think there is a problem with the file name defaulting. Consider the following. Visit file FOO1.BAR Edit it. Type C-X C-W, and then type followed by escape. If has only one file in it (for instance FOO2.MUMBLE), the escape gives FOO2.MUMBLE instead of FOO1.BAR. Thanks, -cwl  Date: 14 May 1983 18:27 EDT From: Kent M. Pitman Subject: SKETCH Library To: INFO-EMACS-RECIPIENTS @ MIT-MC I had a Sketch library which a few people were using and it had a number of misfeatures that people didn't seem to like, so it's just been redone in an incompatible-but-better (I hope) way. Loading the library SKETCH will set up c-m-S as a dispatch character for Sketch commands. You can create libraries of sketches and list the contents of such libraries. You can insert, edit, or view existing sketches from a library. The library is mostly self-documenting. A few relevant things that are not really documented anywhere... Anything in the sketch which has angle brackets around it will be prompted for. Hence, you can have a sketch like: Dear , Hi, how are you? and it will prompt "Name: " when you try to insert it, making the obvious replacement. If you want to put a "<" into a sketch, put control-Q before it. Also, the character "~" is used to mark the position in the sketch where you want the cursor to end up. As you might expect, control-Q will quote it. Also, the format of sketch libraries has changed; control-L separates entries (also requiring control-Q if it wants to exist in a sketch). Apologies for any problems this incompatibility will cause. I think the general effect will be for the better. Non-MIT maintainers can get the new library from MC:EMACS1;SKETCH 51 or from OZ:PS:SKETCH.EMACS.51 Send questions/bugs to KMP@MIT-MC. --kmp  Date: Fri, 13 May 1983 21:31 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ The TMACS library function M-X Type Mailing List might try to win on Twenex by running MAILBOX or XMAILBOX... Leigh.  Date: Fri 13 May 83 06:05:49-PDT From: Stuart Reges Subject: Weirder and weirder To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA Office: Margaret Jacks 215, 497-9798 I finally fixed the bug. I noticed that I had many [TECO].OUTPUT.* files. I had 23 of them, to be exact. I deleted them all and then expunged. I then tried to save the file again. No luck. But it generated: [TECO].OUTPUT.22 the next generation in that sequeunce. But all the old versions were gone! I RESET my EMACS fork and tried again. Same thing. Then I deleted the two [TECO].OUTPUT files, expunged, logged off, and then logged back in. When I try it now, it seems to work. WHY?????? -------  Date: Fri 13 May 83 05:58:16-PDT From: Stuart Reges Subject: More on this bugg To: bug-emacs@SU-SCORE.ARPA cc: mrc@SU-SCORE.ARPA Office: Margaret Jacks 215, 497-9798 I really am completely lost. This is driving me crazy. I am connected to my directory and visit a file in called ACCOUNTS.DAT. I try to save a change and get "write or owner access required to file". I look at the directory and find [TECO]mumble files with protection of 775200. I have my default file protection set at 777702, I have the directory's default file protection set to 777700, I have the file set at 777700, I have the directory protection set at 777740, and it is in a directory group of which I am a user. WHY?????? -------  Date: 13 May 1983 0420-EDT From: RMS@MIT-OZ Subject: [TECO].OUTPUT To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ I recall that there were problems with TECO writing output files under their "real names", which caused the change to use [TECO].OUTPUT. I don't remember what they were. If anyone can be tracked down who rememberes, a comment should probably go in the code that opens output files saying what they were. If the current system works best when file protection is not in use, then it should bnot be changed. People who do not use protection shouldn't have to suffer for the sake of those who screw themselves (or each other). -------  Date: Thu 12 May 83 16:51:10-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: [TECO].OUTPUT Sender: GOTELLI@SU-SCORE.ARPA To: Bug-EMACS@SU-SCORE.ARPA Reply-To: MRC@SU-SCORE.ARPA I would like this flushed. It repeatedly screws users to have EMACS write [TECO].OUTPUT and rename it, especially given that it writes it with the directory's default file protection. Because of this, it is perfectly possible for a user to write a [TECO].OUTPUT which she cannot rename over to the new name. -------  Date: 11 May 1983 15:39 EDT (Wed) From: Ian Macky To: Richard Mlynarik Cc: bug-info@MIT-OZ, bug-EMACS@MIT-OZ Subject: info lossage if not connected to ps: In-reply-to: Msg of May 10 1983 4:40AM-EDT from Richard Mlynarik The DIR.INFO pointer for Tex was "TBase", and since INFO is using a default device of "DSK:" (which is defined to mean connected directory), it wasn't working very well. I moved TBASE's .INFO file to INFO: and made the pointer just (TBASE), which will make it work always, but someone should probably use a more reasonable default like "PS:" for finding info files.  Date: 11 May 1983 15:39 EDT (Wed) From: Ian Macky To: Richard Mlynarik Cc: bug-info@MIT-OZ, bug-EMACS@MIT-OZ Subject: info lossage if not connected to ps: In-reply-to: Msg of May 10 1983 4:40AM-EDT from Richard Mlynarik The DIR.INFO pointer for Tex was "TBase", and since INFO is using a default device of "DSK:" (which is defined to mean connected directory), it wasn't working very well. I moved TBASE's .INFO file to INFO: and made the pointer just (TBASE), which will make it work always, but someone should probably use a more reasonable default like "PS:" for finding info files.  Date: Sat, 7 May 1983 17:42 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: Bruce R. Donald Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Saving Keyboard Macros (Question) In-reply-to: Msg of 7 May 1983 16:08 EDT (Sat) from Bruce R. Donald You can't do it right now. Peter Gergely has a new keyboard macro package that lets you do lots of wonderful things. Hopefully that will be ready by the beginning of next month.  Date: 7 May 1983 16:08 EDT (Sat) From: Bruce R. Donald To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: Saving Keyboard Macros (Question) [This is a question, not a bug.] How do I save several keyboard macros together in one file? I Have tried appending individual files togenther, but the resulting aggregate won't load. Is there a way to dump a whole bunch into one file, or is there some special separator protocol? Bruce  Date: Fri, 6 May 1983 03:59 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: [HDT: forwarded] Date: 6 May 1983 02:48 EDT (Fri) From: Howard D. Trachtman To: Klotz Would you be willing to rename the message: Write out changes in old_modified_file? to something like: There appear to be changes in old_modified_file. Do you want to write them out before ...? I seem to remember getting confused by this a while ago.  Date: Fri, 6 May 1983 03:59 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ Subject: [HDT: forwarded] Date: 6 May 1983 03:32 EDT (Fri) From: Howard D. Trachtman To: klotz Bolio mode seems to be undefined in emacs. Also, I seem to be having trouble exiting from the equivalent of the kill or save buffers menu.  Date: 5 May 1983 17:09 EDT (Thu) From: Sam Message-ID: <[MIT-XX].FHSU. 5-May-83 17:08:00> To: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ when i do a Query Replace$ the search string is set so that ^S/^R will search for the string, but it doesn't show me in the echo area... Replace String$ and Query Replace$ should set whatever ^S and ^R looks at to show the defaults.  Date: Thu, 5 May 1983 00:54 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: David Vinayak Wallace Cc: bug-emacs@MIT-OZ, cent@MIT-OZ Subject: on OZ In-reply-to: Msg of 4 May 1983 23:53 EDT (Wed) from David Vinayak Wallace I lost track. There used to be an and an .  Date: 5 May 1983 02:28 EDT From: Leigh L. Klotz To: BUG-EMACS @ MIT-MC I moved the bug file to EMACS1;. EMACS; suffers from the same problem as SYS;, and there isn't an EMACS: device like there is a SYS:, so we have to make do.  Mail-from: Ethernet host Sierra rcvd at 28-Apr-83 03:49:04-PDT Received: from SCORE by Sierra with Pup; Wed 27 Apr 83 07:09:31-PDT Date: Wed 27 Apr 83 07:05:10-PDT From: The Mailer Daemon To: CSL.JLH.BRADFORD@SCORE Subject: Message of 24-Apr-83 06:36:09 ReSent-date: Thu 28 Apr 83 03:45:11-PDT ReSent-from: Ethan Bradford ReSent-to: bug-emacs@MIT-MC Message undeliverable and dequeued after 3 days: bug-emacs@MIT-AI.ARPA: Cannot connect to host. ------------ Date: Sun 24 Apr 83 06:36:09-PDT From: Ethan Bradford Subject: Glitch in C-Rub To: bug-emacs@MIT-AI.ARPA cc: csd.kronj@SU-SCORE.ARPA, jlh.bradford@Sierra Strange problems with C-Rub (^R Tab Hacking Rubout): If I insert 10 tabs on a line (which leaves the cursor at the right margin) then any other text (which wraps around) then move back to the end of the tabs (left margin of the second screen line) and type C-Rub, a TAB is deleted without being converted to spaces. If the amount of extra text at the end of the line is 6 characters or less, the re-display is also wrong; it only does one DELCH on the first screen line (i.e. the Excl is moved one space left and no characters are moved from the second to the first screen line). Now comes the wierd part: if in the second case I ask for a re-display or move the cursor or ask for help, then the display and any other tests reveal that a tab has been deleted; if instead I immediately type another C-Rub or type a C-Rub after C-@ or C-X . (chosen as tests since they don't affect the display), two TAB's are gone and there are 13 (not 14) spaces in their place! To reiterate, the exact character sequences which will reproduce the reported bugs are (starting at the beginning of a line): C-U 10 TAB A B C D E F G M-B C-RUB (Display will be normal, but a whole tab is deleted.) C-U 10 TAB A B C D E M-B C-RUB C-L (Display was strange before C-L; now a whole tab is deleted and display reflects that.) C-U 10 TAB A B C D E M-B C-RUB C-RUB (Display is normal, but two tabs were deleted and there are 13 spaces in their place.) My terminal is a Zenith 19, but I don't think that's significant. -- Ethan ------- -------